2004 January


…As far as I can see anyway, no matter
how “enlightened” or immolated or steeped in the
Absolute I may be or claim to be (and as Peter reminds us, who
am “I”?), I still perceive some individuation, and I am thus in one
sense in error; this “I” which speaks can never claim to be fully and
only That emptifulness: at best an Atm(an)ic wave or blissful
vibration of That. There is room for error on even that Atm(an)ic
plane, let alone all the rest we operate on.

So at the very least on the obviously relative planes where we still
operate as physically-incarnated individuals, I am imperfect. I am
responsible for my own actions, I still make mistakes, and I am still
(ideally) learning from them. One can only use “crazy-wisdom” as an
excuse when the behavior truly benefits on every perceptible level,
does no harm, serves to truly enlighten; otherwise it is an
unconscionable rationalisation for yet another pocket of ignorance.
While true that even abuse may enlighten us, we do not condone abuse
or excuse the abuser; Grace is Graceful! If you smell something
rotten, there probably really is a dead mouse somewhere behind the
sink. And sure, the fact the mouse is dead and decomposing is all
natural, all good, all blissful, but it still really ought to be
thrown out, before the whole house goes moldy. :-) Because then we
might just have to tear down the whole house, or so I hear. :-)

…by divine Grace all one’s remaining (“uncooked”) desires
are fulfilled as quickly and efficiently as possible,
taking everyone’s karma into account.Ideally we quickly
see that the fulfillment of those desires is not all that
desirable after all, but I guess it takes as long as it takes.
While one still has those desires, however, one is responsible
for them. The only one who is not responsible is the One who did not
do it. If an action is done, there is an actor responsible for it.

…While I honor my past experience as valid, the whole concept of
enlightenment versus ignorance feels pretty meaningless at the
moment. We’re always learning something, and there’s always something
still to learn.

…I greatly enjoyed the emptiful freedom of “Brahman” in about 1983-84,
and “I” definitely felt it was a huge milestone, and that “I” was
important for having “attained” (actually fallen into) It.
(Paradoxically, I also felt utterly ordinary and the same as
everything else). When I was in “Maharishi-consciousness” in about
1987, the bliss was immensely delightful, and apparently
charismatically attractive to everyone around me (though they often
almost immediately dropped into deep sleep when I explicated subtle
mechanics :-) ). It awakened immense bliss and devotion in them. This
I did not find to be wrong per se, but I also found many people
abdicating their personal responsibility, creating a sort of deadness
or zomboid quality in them that I instinctively reacted against. Upon
further reflection, I also realized I was feeding off their love and
devotion, as well as seeing them as pawns in a larger Master-plan,
and rather than let myself get addicted to all of that, I quit.

I didn’t desire and wasn’t offered huge amounts of money (beyond the
$100-200 for the Solar Initiation, which seemed like a lot to me);
never slept with any of my students while they considered themselves
still my students: never abused my charisma (that I know of) to that
extent. Only a few months of money, fame, adulation etc. elapsed
before I figured that wasn’t the way for me to go if I valued further
growth as a human being. I credit MMY for this, as he showed me by
example the pitfalls I wished to avoid.

…I slipped into it again on a less egregious scale in about 1994-
95, when my wife and I had opened a “New-Age” shop and Temple in
Salem, MA. I again found myself blissfully teaching, but this time
avoided the Guru-model, encouraged feedback and independent thinking,
and did not create the zomboid quality in my students, nor see them
as pawns in a larger Plan. Also, while I charged one-time tourists a
moderate fee for energy-work, I no longer charged friends who came to
see me on a regular basis. However, I eventually found myself
immensely drawn to my favorite student, a wonderful teacher in her
own right, and though I didn’t act on it physically, my wife was
(rightly) quite upset. I chose my marriage over my practice (an
obvious choice one might think, but it was a new one for me, a pretty
big test, actually, and a painful one). I realized I was still
somewhat addicted to adulation, and took steps to heal that. We also
decided to close the shop, and I took my wife on a tour of my
favorite holy spots out west, including FF, Sedona, and Orcas. All of
these places also healed us.

Since then, I have mostly lived the life of a retired householder; I
still work with people now and then, but always now for free (and was
THAT ever a relief!), and I have not encountered those particular
problems again. I am not particularly enchanted with the role of
healer, counselor, guru, teacher, etc. anymore. If someone comes
along and wants it, it’s OK for a little while. It can be a useful
model to effect healing. But it’s just another mask, useful for the
moment, not something I care to identify with.

…I think one is always learning. Ideally we master some issues,
and then move on to others, or subtler forms of them. I don’t THINK I
would be subject to money or fame or adulation again, and sex is
deglamorized, but I certainly wouldn’t want to bet the farm on any of
it. :-) If we remain aware, the addictions too are a grace, showing
us the holes/grit we still need to heal, and the corresponding
opportunities for more emptifullness.


..immediately after the plunge into “Brahman” (higher harmonic of
CC) … I was definitively shown that rebirth here was no longer
required, and I was free to die if I wished — though continuation
here would greatly accelerate my growth through those subtle planes.


I don’t think we actually fall back…. We do (ideally) go through
(lots and lots of) refinement.

Personally, I don’t think that even if
your entire body is permanently immortalized into light,
you are a master of all the siddhis, etc. etc., that you are
really “done” on all planes. Are the devas done? No way.
Good, though, as we say in Maine.

…Perhaps at each of those stages one has indeed reached the “ultimate
state of enlightenment” — for that particular layer of Self or
aspect of Self. I do question whether we can ever be “THE” ultimate
state of enlightenment, whatever Shankara might have said.

…Again, it IS (or appears) right on those all-forgiving levels,
but one is clearly not infallible in the relative, and would be wrong
to claim such. It would only encourage others to give you all their
power, so that you could feed off and “zombify” them. Personally, I
think it is safer to abandon the model of ultimate perfection in the
relative. Keeps us all a lot saner. We’re here to be human, which
means making mistakes, learning from them, and moving on. Belief in
relative perfection only leads to narcissistic denial, IMO.

[Does MMY make misktakes?] …On some levels, sure, as have we all,
whether we realize it or not.  On the level which eats and breathes
and thinks and speaks and teaches, I don’t really think so,
for me at least. On the other other hand, he is still teaching me,
if mostly by negative example at the moment. I continue to
be most grateful to him. :-)


…we could see them [gurus] as showing us the nature of our errors.
These guys are good mirrors. Everything we see, we are responsible
for — or at least, every reaction, we are responsible for. Those
things tend to bother us most in others that we haven’t yet digested
or healed in ourselves. To the degree these guys still cause a
reaction in us, they are still teaching us.

I do not mean to excuse their misdeeds in any way, but I also would
emphasize we are still learning from these guys! When we needed to
see them as perfect, we saw them as perfect. When our understanding
was able to handle it and move into forgiveness of flaws (in
ourselves and others), we began to see the flaws. When we were
younger, we idealized our parents, then the guru. Now we are
essentially equals of both our parents and the guru (and it took
anger to reclaim our displaced power); we all have strengths and
weaknesses. As Love increases in strength, it truly does conquer,
forgive and heal more and more: in others, as in ourselves. Again, I
am not advocating ignoring or rationalising their misdeeds; that
would be tamas (denial). Nor am I advocating we remain in anger (the
rajas of awakening out of denial). Rather, acknowledge the hurt and
the anger, feel those parts of the bodymind, give ourselves love,
breathe into it, know that is OK to feel; let the body fully awaken
into clarity (sattva). And when we feel impelled to speak or act to
heal an injustice, we do so.

…Any guru or teacher worth his salt will create students more advanced
than he is, just as we are expected to learn from and surpass our

…Or we may already be all enlightened AND still
learning. Or something else entirely. I would try to choose or create
a reality-model that both fits the facts as I perceive them and still
inspires me the most. Try to be flexible; it will probably be truer
that way. Unless it gives you more bliss to be rigid. That’s OK too.

…He is (and we are) both enlightened, and
flawed. Perfect, and imperfect. Done in some areas, still learning in
others. We see what we most need to see.

…They are
probably not perfect, but probably not out-and-out scoundrels either.
They do make mistakes. Again, I would remember they are mirrors, and
if I am reacting strongly, there is probably something I am still
judging in myself. But I would guess it may be quick karma-burning or
not — depends on if and how long they get caught at those subtle
levels, I suspect. Those siddhis can be immensely attractive and
addictive. Personally, I think the whole guru-model is probably
inherently flawed, at least for most Westerners.

…Never underestimate the power of leshavidya. :-) Seriously, it is
always easier to see another’s flaws than those in oneself —
especially if you follow the guru-model and attract blissfully
uncritical followers. You’re just not getting the corrective feedback
you need, and your ego probably just gets bigger and bigger.
Megalomania. If it weren’t for seeing what I considered MMY’s errors
in that regard, I most certainly would have fallen blindly into the
same trap myself. MMY and these other guys are doing us a great
service. We can learn from their mistakes. We’d better learn from
them, or we will repeat them. :-)

…[degrees of development with distinct milestones along the path]
At some points, that is a useful model, yes. At others it is equally
clear that there never was a path. Though this too can feel like
a “milestone”. Paradox. :-)

…I think it was in part seven. I called it that for lack of a better
term. That’s what it felt like: full immersion in and identification
with Maharishi (though I felt that my cognition of the mechanics of
creation were in some areas considerably more accurate than his).
Though I never mentioned him or his teachings, I felt exactly like
him, laughing in waves of golden bliss, and old long-time devotees of
him kept coming up to me and saying they felt as if they were in his
presence. It was a Graceful fulfillment of a longtime desire.

…I think MMY attained an extraordinary state of consciousness. How
much so, I can’t say. He gave me all I needed. A rock has an
extraordinarily blissful state of consciousness too, and at another
time gave me all I needed. (I mean this in all seriousness.) He (or
my God through him) did a great deal for me: I also think many others
have probably attained the same, or gone beyond. I am definitely
choosing the ordinary-guy role overall, as I usually learn more that
way. In my very discussion in chats like this I may be flirting with
disaster, but I am learning a lot here too. So far, it feels worth
the risk.

[MMY wanted to walk away from it all.]

Yes, and again, I am sorry for his pain — I can really understand it
wholeheartedly — but personally glad he didn’t walk away from it
all, as I learned a lot more from him this way. Maybe someday I will
make somewhat the same sacrifice he made, out of love for the world.
I rather hope it doesn’t come to that. It can be pretty sticky. But
if I am called I will give it my best shot.

…Well, I think it is probably a lot like being a rock-star. If you are
grounded with a good home-life, good friends who tell you when you’re
full of shit, a good sense of balance, a good sense of humor and the
ability to laugh at yourself, you might not fall for all the hype and
adulation. I think it might be as simple as that; not really or
necessarily some “ultimate, impeccable state.” (Waiting for that to
arrive before one does service is also a trap.) That was one reason I
loved teaching so much with my friends — it was easier to avoid the
One Big Man model, and let your hair down at the end of the day, and
go out and have some food and kick back together. But the fact that
we were teaching my system, my way definitely carried seeds of the
One Big Man archetype.

…I don’t see any end to [healing].
It often feels as if “I” am done, but then all of a sudden
someone new pops up in my attention-field. When I joined this group,
I suddenly had about about twenty new people inside me who are
currently cooking in My heartfire. Is this real? Or some kind of
megalomaniac illusion/introjection? Maybe I am really cooking in Your
heartfire? Maybe both, or neither. I only know I have been burning up
ever since I joined Fairfield Life. Feels great.

…I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the process —
and I hope you will pardon me if I give completely different answers
next time you ask (if I am still here). I reserve the right to be
inconsistent. Ethical and honest as I can be, but inconsistent, if a
different layer of meaning suddenly unfolds.


If you direct your anguished, heartfelt need to the God/dess you most
need, S/He has no choice but to respond. Nature abhors a vacuum.
Grace flows where an opening has been made. I don’t mean to sound
glib; it really is a cosmic law, as far as I can see. Find and rest
in that anguished, empty desire, direct it to the form of the Divine
you most desire, speak your piece, and when you are done, relax and
attend, and you will be filled beyond measure. These are aspects of
self calling to aspects of Self.

This only works effectively and immediately if you are really open to
feel the full pain of your heartfelt need. Even if you don’t, though –
– even a little of this must eventually bring results. It appears
that all desires are eventually fulfilled or alchemically destroyed
(erased by cultivation of their opposite). On one level, a desire is
a misapprehension of an already-fulfilled fact; you couldn’t know it
as a desire unless you already received the object of desire from
another viewpoint. (What I mean here, is, from the mental or navel
desire-plane of space-time, things appear “at a distance” that are
actually from the heart or buddhic or intuitive-plane viewpoint, no-
distance.) That is why we can say it is all Grace.

You may well have to work through some or most of your belief-
distortions about God/dess and unconditional Love before you truly
allow yourself to feel the depths of your need and meet Him/Her/Them.
(Hope this doesn’t sound too pompous.) It is a natural and
unspeakably beautiful thing, and one you are fully entitled to, if
you can dare to let yourself deserve it.


…The SENSE of what I took to be “Brahman-Consciousness”
was…indeed rock-bottom, utterly simple
emptifulness, perfect rest, perfect clarity, perfect crystalline
ordinariness, absolutely the same everywhere, always had been, always
would be, and infinitely more gut-shattering than I had expected it
would be. The inner Self (my Solar Angel) was now destroyed and
strewn everywhere. No center. There was no way to fall from that,
because I was “already standing on the ground.” it wasn’t an
experience-perception that came from outside the Self; the experience-
perception quite obviously came from the knowledge or dialectic I had
gone through immediately before, in deciding to determine and
acknowledge my own perfection and its criteria.

However, there were a lot of unfoldments and refinements after That,
and it was only later that I developed my own Work or Self-portrait
(my Bliss-Body-of-Knowledge) and began to teach it. That’s when the
charisma issues heated up. I have to say that one is quite capable of
making mistakes galore on the relative planes of action after That
realization. I am still capable of making them now (as you know). One
definitely “knows” that one is “safe,” “done,” etc., as far as the
earth plane goes, and I suspect this really is true, but we continue
to use the earth plane to refine and burn off subtler desires. And
sometimes we fall flat on our face, as you say. :-)

Did you ever play Leela? If so, did you notice that the first time or
two you played, you were really on fire to get to the top, finish the
game, get enlightened? And after that, it didn’t matter much any
more, you had done it, so you could explore all the levels in
between, even the seemingly gruesome ones, just for their flavor? I
think it’s a lot like that. Ignorance isn’t scary anymore, can even
be revelled in, as we delight in playing hide and seek with our
Selves (and selves) from all different angles. A dance of Krishna’s

…Well, since I have been an adult I have always tried my best to speak
the truth, refrain from inflicting pain, etc. If I unwittingly lie or
inflict pain now, I usually feel it immediately. But there are still
areas of ignorance I have in which I am acting unconsciously or from
rote and unexamined memory, old belief-patterns, etc. Habits,
unexamined addictions, concrete mind. Despite the shift in gravity
from the self to the Self or from the Self to the World-Self (or
beyond), this stuff is still in us.

…If you are in no big hurry to be done, I would guess that may be
because you know you already are, or as close as (almost) makes no
difference. Sometimes the intensity of desire is like the perceived
length of the “cord” between you and the object of desire; if it
seems to be far away the cord is stretched tight and the desire is
agony. If it is close, the desire often actually seems to vanish just
before you attain its object. Not always, though, and sometimes it is
the very intensity of desire that “snaps” the object into your
bodyfield. I guess we can’t make a Law out of this one. :-) In any
event, I would take the opportunity to inquire what Enlightenment
really means to me; as much as possible letting go of what others
have said about it, and really figuring out what I truly most desire.
And then allow myself to have that, feel it on the inner, see if it
is really what I want, feel how the bodymind responds to it. Don’t
worry about the desire changing. God/dess is infinitely merciful, and
loves to fulfill every desire. Such inner fulfillment really helps
all of creation, not “just” you, but transforms your entire Creation,
and does bring Heaven to Earth, where it always has been. I think
Yagyas certainly have (or may have) a purifying effect — sound
properly uttered IS magic — but in the end it is really just between
you and your God/Self. Simple innocent give and take.

…that was MMY’s Grace for me — when I was in “Maharishi-
Consciousness,” I/we saw that model was not right for me to pursue. I
mean how much clearer of a lesson could I have gotten? And this is
years after I left the TMO, and had “divorced” MMY himself. And still
He was teaching me, enfolding me with every aspect of Himself,
fulfilling my every desire. Believe me, I am so grateful to Him.

…it may be that the very Light they [higher enlightened beings]
enjoy casts their remaining grit-spots into harsher darkness. If so,
that would be an aspect of Grace, too, if they have the wit to see it.
It’s not always that easy to see it in yourself, even when it is
staring you in the face — particularly, as I’ve mentioned, when you
are hindered by the guru-model which surrounds you with an artificial
world of uncritical devotion and restricts corrective feedback.
But let’s not forget, this too is a Grace-filled lesson for us.
We see what we need to see.


I think in theory when it comes to God- or Self-realization, probably
anything at all is possible, including approaches not covered above.
I can’t really speak or speculate much of others’ approach to God.
From the time I consciously entered the path, I did my best generally
to be the best person I could be, ethically and morally speaking. I
still do, for more selfish reasons. :-) I don’t know how it would be
truly possible to be in Unity and purposely harm another, unless one
is still acting out of the unconscious or partly-unconscious pain of
that-which-is-not-yet-dissolved. And there are many more portions of
the Self to integrate than we at first might believe. But perhaps
under certain circumstances one might actually be a bit more callous
about “harming” another, since one knows one is truly only harming
oneself, and knows so clearly it is all bliss underneath. It is hard
sometimes to remember how it felt to be in that first ignorance, how
painful it really was. Rather as an adult might not fully recall how
intensely a two-year-old NEEDS that stick. When we envelop that sort
of individual’s pain into our bodyfield, it automatically burns up,
from our perspective anyhow.


It’s an interesting question, all right, and doubtless viewable in
different ways by different people at different times. From my
current perspective, anyhow, the idea of there being tiers or planes
between this dense earth up through the subtler heavens above or
beyond (which did indeed seem obvious and real at one point) more
recently seems to be a perspective rendering only. It was if I had to
experience them separately at first so I could understand them
clearly, but presently all the dimensions are available at once right
here and now; it’s simply a matter of letting go of the belief in
spacetime (or other-dimensional) limitation, and refining one’s
perception or looking more closely. When we let go of judgement of
good and bad, etc., and realize it really is all bliss, we do begin
to inhabit or enliven the sacred here, and Heaven does “come to” or
reappear on earth. Not just a good life; the celestial itself; our
God/dess Him/Herself, all the devas etc. By the same token we first
have to subtly travel to the celestial realms we want to visit, but
later we actually bring them to us, and finally we just look a little
closer and there they are. Again, just my experience as of now, open
to revision as necessary.

…we cherish the light when we need it most.
Interestingly, Sri Yukteswar (Yogananda’s master) calculated we came
out of Kali Yuga in the nineteenth century. True or not, it’s good to
reexamine cherished beliefs from time to time. There are a great many
cosmic cycles, and a lot of them are extremely beneficial just now….

…Not that yagyas [performed by an intermediary] aren’t great
and all; they very well can be. Your own chanting is probably even
better, and better than that is a heartfelt communion with God. Soma
is not dependent upon some priestly hierarchy, and you aren’t
dependent upon them either, if you choose not to be. God/dess is
there when you need Him/Her. Devotion, Love, Honesty, is the real
attractant. The thought that one would need someone else to mediate
between one and the various aspects of one’s Self does seem a bit
ludicrous. I understand we all need a bit of help from time to time,
but this smacks of total disempowerment, like the good old Catholic
Church in medieval times. Or is this another spoof? :-)


I don’t think it was a just a feel-good thing (sure didn’t exactly
feel “good” at the time), although it may have been a take-my-word-
for-it thing. (You tell me, you were living with me when I fell into
it, right around John’s birthday, Nov. of ’82, I think.) As
mentioned, the whole world turned inside out. Not particularly
pleasant, in some respects. :-) For me, anyhow, perfection was most
definitely “in the picture.” It was the absolute insistence on my
right to dwell in a state of Perfection that propelled me
into “Brahman-Consciousness” in the first place. And this was
definitely That, and the end of all Seeking per se. After that came
the bliss of continual Finding, or Creating the Body of Knowledge

…At first, everything was so emptiful, that there was just the feeling
of absolute and utter freedom. Complete and unconditional Divine
acceptance of whatever impulse arose. I would have said at the time
that the yamas and niyamas obeyed Me, or That in me. No error, as the
I Ching might say. :-)

…While I have said that it is possible (and probably unavoidable) for
the Enlightened to make mistakes in the relative, I would (at the
risk of seeming inconsistent) suggest here that we really can’t judge
what another’s mistake truly is, at least for us and our response to
it. Can we judge whether another’s behavior is egregious or illegal?
Absolutely, and feel whatever that makes us feel, and take whatever
steps necessary to rectify it. Can we call it a mistake, and somehow
imperfect? Not necessarily. That depends on what state of healing we
ourselves are in. At one point (Denial) all is perfect; the Guru can
do no wrong. At another point (Anger), the Guru may be a charlatan;
he stole my money, my dignity, my power. At a third point (Clarity),
all is again perfect, and we have now integrated the Guru,
reintegrated our dignity and power (and discovered that the money was
well spent, and easily replaceable). We have finished with the
adolescent rebellion, and become adults ourselves. Again, I do not
mean to excuse or condone the behavior itself. But until we “eat” our
response to it and dissolve our pain back into bliss, we will be
stuck. The freedom comes from acknowledging that whatever we feel is
OK. Indeed, is perfect. No mistakes.

One might go so far as to say that this outrageous behavior is an
acting-out of MMY’s, a conscious or unconscious attempt to kick us
loose of that first stage of infant-dependency and denial. I don’t
know if that’s what he meant by it or not; I will probably never
know. But I do know that that’s how it affected me: it shocked me, it
woke me up, it pissed me off, it got me to start thinking for myself,
and I am most grateful for that. It wasn’t more than a year or two
after that, that I fell into “Brahman.” And that’s what a Guru is
supposed to do, isn’t it? Wake us up? OK, so he didn’t tell us that
waking up was hard to do, and would hurt like hell. :-) At least he
did it, and we did it, and are doing it. That is a really Good Thing.


… in undeveloped (instinctual) form, black magic is
actually a lot more common than one might think. People take “nips”
out of each other all the time, to add to their own stockpile of
energy. Every put-down is viewable as one these nips: Someone
ridicules or criticises us; we feel diminished and they feel
enhanced; energy is transmitted; they’ve “eaten” some of “our” subtle
substance. We bide our time (or not), and then give as good as we
got, either to the first person, or if they are dominant Alpha and we
are submissive Beta, we may pass the abuse down the line to someone
lower on the food-chain than we are. Or Beta may respond to Alpha via
passive-aggressive behavior, petty theft, etc. Peck! Pluck! We’ve
taken back “our” energy. Kind of like a bunch of chickens. Or
mammals, as I like to say. :-)

These schools in Gujarat may well show one how to use subtle
techniques of hypnosis, etc. to claim an ongoing dominant Alpha state
so that everyone automatically feeds you. (Claiming dvine
infallibility and discouraging criticism of the Master would be great
ways to keep the energy moving your way.) With Shaktipat you could
give them back in one quick jolt some or all of the energy they (or
others) have been offering you. If you are a conscious black
magician, you would probably make sure that you didn’t give out as
much as you got; that you were always banking some in a
private “account” (in Switzerland?). By gathering the adulation and
psychic energy from as many followers as possible, you could really
do some impressive stuff, again, kind of like a rock star. I wonder
if celebrities notice similar zombification in their number-one fans.
A similar effect may have appeared on the music scene for the first
(?) time with Elvis and the Beatles and their large crowds of adoring
screaming teen-age-girl (!) fans. (Reminds me too of the WW-II Hitler
rallies in Nuremberg.)

In one sense, any time too we say “I am” or “You are” followed by a
pejorative, we’ve indulged in a form of black magic: Maya/speech
which is less than the highest, denigrating the absolute. Am I really
old and lazy? Or am I experienced and efficient? Or am I a soap-
bubble, emptiness within and emptiness without and a film of
iridescent leshavidya in-between? Of course in another sense any time
we say “I” followed by anything at all, we are in error. But “I” feel
funny going around saying “this body-mind” or “this emptiful echo-
chamber” or “this momentary melange of consciousness-particles”
or “this love-field” or “this memory of a memory” instead of “I”.


…In the final analysis it is absolutely all perfect, always has been.
(Or as Peter nicely points out, actually just a dream.) I still feel the
other may well be a necessary stage of waking up for some if not all;
it was so for me anyhow. I feel it’s supremely important (as one is
awakening) to validate and acknowledge as perfect the feelings one is
going through if one is to move from frozen Denial through Anger to
Clarity and beyond. If we don’t feel the wound we cannot awake. As we
awaken we feel the primal wound. This hurts excruciatingly. When we
are hurt we tend to lash out. If others insist on saying we’re not
wounded, we’re OK, what’s wrong with us anyhow, probably just
unstressing, it only makes it worse. :-) Of course, that is just part
of the wound, too. All perfect; the sooner we can allow the agony of
crucifixion to be OK, be with it, the sooner we can wake up the rest
of the way. That cry “My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken me” is
the perfect expression of that state.


…Despite that immediate WHAM of THAT blowing the old Self into
smithereens — and eventually moving on from THAT to construct the
Bliss-body etc. — there was (and is) still the (re)appearance of the
same old small-self actor, thinker, perceiver, etc. He was dethroned,
and became utterly the same as everything else in the face of THAT.
From the cosmic point of view, no error. But he still exists. From
his point of view, still making mistakes, still learning. He learns
to surrender more and more, to truly accept that he too is not other
than THAT, emptiful bliss.

He may at (many!) times cling to ignorance and unknowingness,
enjoying the perspective of being a creature, secure that as a
devotee, as the beloved son, as the Self of the Unspeakable his sins
are forgiven and erased before he makes them, and that sin or error
itself is no barrier to THAT. Every action is perfectly enfolded in
THAT and automatically absorbed. He can fully throw himself into
forgetfulness and enjoy that Ignorance, back into the very depths of
Hell and separation from THAT, knowing he will always be pulled back,
by the Grace of THAT and all the sons and daughters of THAT, to the
bosom of THAT, bearing some new experience and wisdom. Or rather,
finding and re-membering THAT — Heaven — even in the depths of
Hell. He is free to make mistakes, to second-guess, to doubt, to
critise, to curse, to eschew THAT and to suffer the appearance of
suffering. No error. He is essentially exactly the same as he was
before THAT, for this is the path we all take here. More and more he
realizes he is made up of many selves, in many dimensions, and he
learns to be “God-Self” for them, learning by example and by trial
and error to show them the innocence and love that he is being shown
by his God-Self. And so forth.

…Can’t speak for the unawakened waking state or the awakened one; at
the moment these appear to be virtually artificial distinctions. At
the bottom, when all the dust settles, THAT is what we’re left with.
An actor, an action, an actee, and the fact that nobody did nothing
to no-one; nothing actually happens. And yet, while we are in the
dream, we act as if it did, and does matter, and we do our best to do
it impeccably.

…Understanding is the key to “Brahman” itself. If you decide to live
your understanding of perfection with full integrity, your experience
and perceptions support that understanding fully.


…(probably too obvious to mention) the pattern of the whole is
reflected or contained in each of the parts, and in each of the parts
of the parts, and so on. This Macrocosmic/Microcosmic resonance
beautifully mirrors similar properties in consciousness, wherein we
find ourself to be a beautiful constellation or conglomeration of
selves each of which is in turn a constellation of selves, and so on.
I enjoy using the Cuboctahedron or Vector-Equilibrium Matrix as an
apt geometrical model, here, as it is a hypersphere or cluster of
twelve equal-sized component spheres all touching an equal-sized
center sphere. (And again each of these component spheres can itself
be a hypsphere of 1 and 12 components, etc.) The 1 and the 12 (or the
12 and the 144) appear in mythological and other structures
everywhere. This is (to me at least) basically a 3-D fractal pattern,
and I believe it to be an exciting model for the geometries of
consciousness manifesting.


…and have noticed that as
chant moves through me it sometimes does that same wobble. Would you
say that the wobble shakes loose certain “stress” or grit in the body-
field? That’s what it seems to do anyhow. The slight shifting back
and forth of frequencies makes it harder for the “scale” (or rust or
grit or stress) to cling to the body-field (as it sometimes manages
to do with through more a predictably even tone); washes it off or
dissolves it more easily. Does that ring true with you?


…That is the proper fore-echo or “bow-wave”
signature of Brahman, everything being the same. If your attention is
on sorting out Brahman, then the so-called “next” stage — while also
present, as you note — is not going to hold any special compass-
needle-surge. (How’s that for a mixed metaphor?)

The neat thing about moving into Brahman is it becomes apparent to
you that someone else’s criteria of Enlightenment are essentially
irrelevant to You, NOW. TC is irrelevant, CC is irrelevant, GC is
irrelevant, UC is irrelevant, WITNESSING SLEEP IS IRRELEVANT, to put
it politely (unless maybe you’ve never experienced it ever and it
actually is desirable for you); the only thing that matters is what
state of consciousness IS meaningful for you to have/be, NOW.

(For me, anyhow, I had tasted them all long enough to get a feel for
them, but realized after a while that contrary to what I was taught I
did not honestly desire any of them permanently. I found that that
very insistence that they “had” to be permanent, was really throwing
me off! — since on closer look I saw I didn’t actually WANT the
states I thought I had been “told” I should keep on wanting and
measuring myself against.) The realization that you could (probably)
have any of them if you wanted them, but you cannot force yourself to
desire something you honestly don’t want, is what propels you to
craft the criteria of the state you DO want. This realization — that
by GOD you are going to demand what YOU want/need — aligns every
force in your being to the one-pointedness required for that Inquiry
and plunge. Or so I found, anyhow. The dynamic may well be/have been
different for you.

….Yes, I am not too comfortable with “glass-like” in some respects as
it seems to imply solid and brittle, but in terms of the transparency
aspect, yes. And come to think of it, glasslike or crystalline is
EXACTLY what everything “looks” like in Brahman (while still looking
utterly ordinary), so Yes!…

…..it really was more as if one simply becomes “Messiah” to those
consciousnesses inside oneSelf (which really are individual particles
or pinpoints of one’s own Bliss/consciousness), as one is embraced
in turn with one’s particle-peers by the larger Self, and that is all
just the Self loving the Self. At any rate, if you indeed are working
on Brahman, this line of thought may be somewhat irrelevant/untimely at
the moment anyhow. And yes, integrating Inner Child, etc. definitely came
into play as well.

….As mentioned above, witnessing of sleep is NOT a necessary
criterion of Your desired state if you don’t desire it. (How’s that for
redundant!) Most important now is to figure out what Perfection means
to YOU. The experience of the desired state springs from YOUR
understanding of it. So long as you think it is the other way around,
(IMO) you are still bound to illusion. This is not a big deal, as
mentioned above, so long as you remember again. And again. And since
that is virtually automatic, really all you have to do is be alert to
the focus of your desire in this moment.

…BAH. Never use these [manifestation of sidhis] as criteria for your
perfection. They are trash. Glittery tinfoil by the side of the road.
(Unless of course you honestly wholeheartedly onepointedly desire
them/NEED them … But honestly, DO You? In this moment?)
Seriously, they are refulgent unfoldments of specific petals which you
can pick up as you go along, or more accurately allow Creator/Self
to play through you as NEEDED, but in no way do they represent criteria
for enlightenment! At certain stages, certain desires for one or another
of these does (or may) become paramount for your development, and at
THAT time, yes, inquire and learn wholeheartedly, etc.

…You can’t use ANY external experience as a criterion for Your desired
state of Perfection. If you do, you are binding yourself to illusion.
Experience/perception FOLLOWS and flows from
realization/understanding, not the other way around. This only really
becomes obvious as one approaches Brahman.

…You can’t use ANY external experience as a criterion (etc., you get
the point. :-) )

…Again, You can’t use… Sounds good, though.

…Inside-out is closer than upside down, I would say, But as you say,
not really it either. :-) This was the RESULT, not the cause of
Brahman-Understanding. The Perception/Experience followed the mental
decision and consequent resolution of body/mind to support my need
for Perfection. Again, probably not too good an idea to use
my “experience” (or worse, my memory of it and attempt to communicate
it) as any criterion for YOU. What do YOU most need to be in this
moment? What state of being do YOU insist on? Any objections in any
part of you to that? If so, take them into account, integrate them,
reformulate the desire, etc. etc. (And again, this may have just been
MY path. Maybe “I ate a tomato right before Enlightenment, so you’d
better too,” as the TMO used to joke.) The thing about your desired
state, is it is crafted and supported by YOU, no one else. IF your
path is at the moment similar to what I remember mine to have been,
AND we are in agreement about where you are on it. I think really
only you can answer that.

…I also want to add that the “all just friggin happens” does
accurately reflect the automatic nature of the inquiry you are on.

…Sometimes we just have to chart unknown territory,
regardless of what we have been told are are being told. Brahman is
absolutely one of those times, or was for me. It’s automatic. You
gotta do what you gotta do.

…the emptifulness and transience…came immediately after the
understanding of Perfection was accepted by body-mind, I believe.

…Well, in a sense it becomes immediately clear that it is impeccable
right then, when one is fully “turned inside out.” But that is only
by contrast to what one had been, I would say. Over time it becomes
obvious that one is still very dense and “peccable” indeed, as one
shifts to new bliss-fields of refinement by which one perceives or
measures and alchemizes the leftovers. So yes, you are right again.
As you know. :-)

…when/if you suddenly realize that the crystalline state
while profoundly and utterly satisfying to the mind,
really isn’t a whole lot of fun to be in. In this respect,
what I took to be “Brahman” sounded a lot like what MMY had described
as CC — even though I had had to go through (what I had taken to be)
CC and GC and UC and finally abandon the external-experience model
entirely to get there. Similarly, the next stage being the
enlivenment again of Heart and new importance of the Absloute
contracting into bliss-particles, which I took to be Krishna, could
also be seen as “just” God-Consciousness, even though I had already
gone through (what I took to be) GC years earlier, and it was now
quite obvious that these bliss-particles were mySelf, not just
refined perception. Maybe they were higher harmonics of the original
states, maybe there WERE just the original states (though my
intuition still tells me otherwise); I don’t know. It doesn’t really
matter. The only thing that matters, is it really is automatic at
these stages; everything is essentially available; all you have to do
is follow your desire or tension-point and figure out what you want
in this moment.

…If I were going to “start a movement” I think I might put more
attention now on polishing that response core, viz. the yamas and
niyamas, etc., as soon as possible along the Path. There might be
fewer lopsided casualties that way. Not really sure, though.

…I am thinking more now of the kind of teaching one might inculcate to
smooth out those natures for future inquirers — at this point, it is
probably too late for us. :-) Unless we decide to visit our past-

…If you have the patience you might check the autobiography;
I put it about as clearly as I could recall
there (part four). The tension-point between
two perfectly irreconcilable opposite-views of my state of
consciousness (which was all-important to me at that time) was key
for transcending both here, and (in another form) at least one other
time (part five toward the end of our stay in the Bahamas). It may
not be so for you; I am not sure how precisely this dynamic has to
play out the same way for everyone on this particular Path.

…In retrospect the phrase “live your understanding of perfection
with full integrity” sounds too clumsy and drawn-out. It was actually
a virtually instantaneous (maybe a few preparatory days or weeks)
process of decision and alignment. And as you say, automatic, all-
consuming. The people around me and close to me were of immense help
in hashing all this stuff out so I could clarify it and be it.


…After you fall into Brahman,
with some more inquiry you may become OMMMM as the Sound of your
totality, and then move through that OM-portal and into the Council
of Masters, and thereafter unfold your own Bliss-Body-of-Knowledge or
Work or (if you must) Veda.

[Comment on: Vedic priests who perform these Vedic sounds in rituals actually
have the power to re-structure the universe]

Not saying that they don’t. Just saying that you do too; do it every
moment in fact. Unless of course you prefer to let someone else
create your universe for you. Priests in every culture are skilled at
persuading you that only they can interecede with God(s) (! your
Self, remember?) for you. While I grant that priests uphold the
rituals that keep society well-oiled, they’ve never actually been too
quick to “give” anyone Enlightenment. That’s not their function. That
would put them out of business. And they’ve got a good gig going.

…We all need some help now and then, though I believe speaking directly
with God is infinitely more rewarding. I am saying, don’t sell
yourself too short, or if you do, at least know that you are choosing
to abdicate your Creatorship. That way maybe you won’t feel (so)
ripped off when you do finally decide to wake up.

[Comment on : Maharishi notes in his commentary on the Gita, TM is a

Not too surprising, since presumably he wrote the commentary to
promote TM. Reminds me a little of the early Christian fathers
proving their particular form of Christianity by citing their own
freshly re-edited Bible. Not to say that people can’t get enlightened
through either of those paths. God/dess is infinitely merciful.

…This might be a good time to examine what enlightenment really
means, why you’re putting it off, what you really want/need it to be
for you, etc. Or again, not, if you prefer.

…[comment on: TM as #1 yagya] What if
you don’t ever get enlightened through TM, but rather go insane
instead, or become hopelessly maladjusted to the world, as it appears
so many have done in the past? Was TM still the #1 yagya for you?
What if you get enlightened by one of the billions of other paths? Is
that a #2 yagya?

… I believe that state naturally unfolds
without Priestly yagyas and as a Master you may soon abandon it as an
unworthy goal after all. But maybe not; everyone’s path is different.
I do wish you all the best in your own Life-Work.


[Comment on: Most troublesome to me was that the main point and effect of your
“teachings” was that there was a wide gulf between you and your
listeners/students/acolytes. You just plain needed a LOT of
attention and you blatantly used your spiritual claims to get it.]

At the time I would have said that that was automatic, but in
retrospect I wince. I was very smart, and intensely arrogant and
needy, as you say. (Probably still am, though I feel more like a
saturated idiot most times.) There’s a lot I might do differently if
I could, but I was who I was. The experience of THAT alone didn’t
cure any of the other — rather threw it into starker contrast.
That’s what I have been trying to say here.

While I certainly see where you are coming from, it didn’t feel like
that to me then, is all I can say. As far as I can tell, it was the
real thing; it doesn’t seem like a particularly big deal now, but it
was SO exciting, and there were a LOT of old desires that were still
there, and they were all getting fulfilled so fast!!

At best, you are right, I was in error, and at worst it was a messy
birth. That’s also what I have been trying to say here. It’s not
(necessarily) a sweetly perfect thing, where the person pops out as
perfectly polished as the greatest sage. The THAT is real (IMO), but
the one who survives it is the same old schmuck, with a lot more
charisma, certainty, some more psychic abilities (maybe), etc. Just
because someone says he and apparently believes he is enlightened
(who am I to judge another’s enlightenment), and even may have some
cool tricks, doesn’t make him someone to drop everything and follow.
Good to listen to those red flags. (Can we listen to a flag?) :-)

[Comment on: I saw you create more separation, not less. You used your spiritual
experiences to rate yourself and others compulsively, and you ALWAYS
came out on top.]

I wouldn’t have put it quite that way, but I was definitely still
addicted to the Ladder-model, etc. I still compulsively measured
experience, mine and everyone else’s, by a concrete-mind standard. It
is hard to “rate” experiences you haven’t yet experienced, of course,
(hence virtually every other experience I recognized, would
be “behind” me), and I was aware of that at the time but I did keep
working on that, trying to get closer to the truth. I figured too
that those who were “ahead” of me wouldn’t be coming to me for help
anyway. I understand (more) now the concept of specialties, etc., and
I would (I hope) be a lot slower to pigeonhole someone, or at least
hedge it around with more uncertainty. The whole thing is utterly
absurd, on one level, anyway. But that doesn’t make it less real to
someone going through it.

…I didn’t particularly care if I had followers per se, but I sure wanted
someone to talk to! Your Mom is still one my best memories of that
time — she didn’t feel any impulse to follow me (I’m laughing at the
very thought), and I really respected her wisdom and Enlightenment
(though it didn’t fit my model at all, and the concrete mind had a
lot of trouble with that), and we I such fun learning and exchanging
knowledge. Though I may be glamorizing some of that; it was a whole
lot more fun with her a few years later in ’86, when I had learned to
surrender a great deal more.

…I “went through” a lot of states extremely fast right
before “Brahman” — not really for the first time but as
recapitulations (albeit more intense ones) as I was realizing that I
could be in any of them I wanted, and was trying them on for size,
trying to find one that fit for me NOW. That was after nine years of
intense meditating and rounding and going to India and thinking of
nothing else and pouring all my energies, spiritual and material,
into that search. In retrospect that doesn’t seem all that fast.

[Comment on: for me, it made any one of the “states” less credible
because it was such an embarrassment of riches.]

I can see where it might seem like that. They were embarassingly

[Comment on: You toss off “Brahman Consciousness” glibly to this day,
and more shocking to me lately was when you offhandedly flashed us your
“I attained Physical immortality too” medal.]

Yes, and I am sure you’ll “love” the stuff about OMM and the Bliss-
Body-of-Knowledge and the Veda I posted this morning, too. :-)
I try to say “what I took to be Brahman” but I sometimes use the
shorthand. (Maybe I should initialize it WITTBB). When someone
brought up physical immortality as something beyond Ordinariness, I
said that held a lot of meaning for me at one point, and might again
perhaps, but didn’t now. I have admitted here that I ascended and
dematerialized, and mentioned some other experiences too. All true. I
am trying to lay everything on the table, and be as honest as I can
be about everything, in hopes this may deglamorize the process. The
process is good, but there is (IMO) way too much glamor around it.

…I would hope I haven’t fooled anyone for any length of time. I have
actually always been doing my best to do otherwise.

…I really don’t disagree with most of what you’ve said,
and it all (IMO) proves the points I have
been trying to make on here with that much more

… I couldn’t at the time see the value of just socializing.
(I do better now, if it helps, though it may not be showing up much on here.)
The role of teacher, guru, etc. was one I really wanted for a long time,
kept flirting with and dropping as more elements of distaste in it kept showing
themselves, and then I would try again from another angle, etc.

[Comment on: Your meditating seemed full of effort. I often had the impression
 that you were hard at work creating your next spiritual experience.]

You’re absolutely right; I devoted many many hours to it, really all
my time to it — even after WITTB. Not TM per se, but inquiry and
response, etc. It WAS hard or at least intense work/play. Intense
focus of the tension point of the next desire.

…The process was ongoing; as soon as one step was done
so much more presented itself. Perhaps your Enlightenment has
been/will continue to be more graceful — wouldn’t be at all
surprised — assuming that model even works for you.

[Comment on: The way you often meditated seemed more like searching
with a goal in mind.]


[Comment on: It looked very much like you researched books for
the next spiritual experience you wanted to have or should have]


[Comment on: which was always a much higher one than where you thought
everyone else around you was, and then you’d get crackin’ with your long
meditations again. Alice Bailey books kept you especially busy.]

Yes, and Yes again.


Bucky Fuller has a lot of stuff on it [Cuboctahedron], and I think
both volumes of his magnum opus on geometry are online now. Rather
dense going in places. I was more fascinated with it from a subjective
point of view, as a model for archetypes or “divine psychology,” etc.
Some thoughts are in the Archives (“The One and the Twelve” and ff.)…

Lest anyone think I am trying to put on airs here, I would like to
reiterate that I doubt any of the stuff there is going to be their
Ultimate and Eternal Truth. I found it extremely useful at certain
points of my Path, which I repeat is now but an old dream.

…This is not the real truth, it is just another necessarily-flawed
model. I know you all already know this, but it apparently needs to
be said anyhow. :-)

…(Though I found the Cuboctahedron Model most useful personally
after “WITTBB” and was quite obsessed with it for a number of years,
the 1-3-27 pattern can also hold a lot of “laundry,” as mentioned in
an earlier post. John Mitchel (“New View Over Atlantis,” etc.) has
published some really nice material on sacred geometery, as has (on
another plane) Drunvalo Melchizadek, although I disagree with him on
some points. (No doubt just my ego comin’ through.)

…See again John Mitchel for some great stuff there.

…I always loved the Fibonacci sequence, as well as some others. I
still love the Fibonacci sequence, and resonate to it in the golden
mean of architecture, spirals, etc.

At one point derived a lot of pleasure seeing these sequences as
analogies or models for the Paths of Mastery outlined in some of the
Alice Bailey works (which as Vashti mentioned provided the next
intensive series of “milestones” for me to ponder and absorb after
the big splash). In retrospect, I would definitely say none of those
sequence-analogies had any lasting value for me — even more
dreamlike than the rest of the stuff I have been trying to describe.
It may well be different for you, and I strongly encourage you to
follow your nose (as if you could do otherwise).


Let me also hasten to add that the “This is not the real truth” above
was meant to refer to the geometrical models in my Archives mentioned
at the start of this original post, NOT to the paragraph at the
beginning of this post “If anyone chooses … etc.) As far as I know,
that IS the real Truth. You won’t get any more enlightenment from me
than you would from a stone (or of course any less either, come to
think of it). *lol*


…It gets really tricky, I think, because the so-called
 enlightened (“SCE”) so often collide with the
expectations of the so-called unenlightened (“SCU”) about
how they (the SCE) SHOULD act. Or maybe I should say the SCU’s
expectations crash against the SCE; or the SCU try to find something
to hold onto in the SCE and can’t grab ahold of anyone in charge
that’s accountable. Frustrating. And when of necessity the SCE don’t
behave by those preconceived notions, this “causes” “pain” to the
SCU — and even sometimes to the (unpolished) “I” still seemingly
haunting the SCE, so far as I can see. The natural (?) tendency of
the SCU is to “blame” the SCE for not behaving “rightly.” (Of course
if the SCE DID always behave “rightly” according to the SCU’s
expectations they wouldn’t be allowing the emptiful THAT through them
to wake the SCU up. If that’s what really happens.)

Again, I don’t mean to use this as an excuse for illegal or unethical
behavior. Though who am I to put boundaries on how anyone “should”
act? I am only responsible for my reactions (inner and outer) to
their action. Yes, hold the SCE accountable, by all means, but also
(and more importantly at certain stages if one wishes to move through
to full clarity), try to comprehend the mystery of that SCU pain
itself, the primal Wound and scream against God/the Other for not
being what one thinks one needs Him/Her to be. As mentioned before,
until we accept that primal Pain, we can’t move through the anger
into full healing. Or so it seems to me. (Again, NOT trying to
justify left-hand path “black magic,” etc. etc.)

[There is no individual self] at least by the old standards. There was
still that echo or noisy dried pea rattling around in the empty gourd-
with-no-edge. :-D …That pea has to polish or dissolve itself through
surrender. I think maybe the practice of surrender only holds real
value AFTER SCE, and is applicable only to the laishavidya-pea? Could
be wrong on that, it just popped in and it feels exciting but maybe
not entirely true. It might be worth discussing though, as before SCE
the SCU’s “surrender” might well be what MMY called moodmaking, and
actually keeps one in Denial. Hmm. I do have to watch out for taking
a momentary pattern as a permanent truth. Fun to consider though.

…I am starting to think that communication on this is perhaps
just not possible between an SCU and an SCE. (This grieves me in a
way *lol*, because from my current viewpoint there is absolutely no
intrinsic difference between an SCU and an SCE at all. The whole
distinction is utterly absurd. But there is no getting around it, for
some reason the SCU really do wholeheartedly believe they are SCU,
and the SCE wholeheartedly believe they are SCE. ) Perhaps there
isn’t any way for anyone who isn’t lost into THAT to really
comprehend that pain does not imply the absence of Grace, but rather
the reverse. (At the risk of sounding as if I am promoting marytrdom,

…while that perception of the automatic quality of
everything in the SCE is correct, the no-self (for me anyhow) is only
correct by comparison to what the self HAD taken itself to be. There
is obviously someone or something still in there, it’s just that they
are “untouchable,” insubstantial, a fearless memory of what they


YES. IMO so-called “stress” is (often? sometimes? always?)
perceptible to the magnified gaze or “refined vision” as demons.
(Though perhaps not all stress can be characterised thusly. Does
anyone have any thoughts on this? Tom? Pete?) And vomiting is a good
way to describe the purification of that particular inner body, I’d
say. :-) I can relate. It is interesting (and I suppose a function of
Grace and Love) that we do not generally see what
the “stress” “inside” “us” looks like, nor witness that deep
cleansing, until we are able to handle that vision. I think it’s good
(if we feel like it) to really give ourselves some grounded love
after that kind of cleansing — take a nice bath, breathe deeply,
sing or chant, have a great meal, take a walk, enjoy the earth, get a
massage. Sometimes the “demons” can almost leave a “hole” in that
subtle body, and they (or others) can knock on the door asking to get
back in. Filling the hole with soma-love precludes the possibility.
You can if it feels appropriate imagine or know that soma is exuding
from your hands (physical or subtle) while slathering the region. But
I may simply be describing an actual experience here, so if this
doesn’t feel right or natural to you, forget it.

…you may be shifting your point-of-view from a “creature” who
is working on transcending, to “Spirit/void/emptifulness” who is
working on incarnating. This would be one true meaning of
the “Crucifixion” — Spirit crossing into or incarnating into Matter,
or Insight/Understanding reconstructing BodyMind or physiology. Sorry
if this is only throwing extra conceptual baggage at you; if so,
ignore it.


… I (believe I’ve) learned a lot in the last 21 years. :-) Enough to know
anyhow that the claim of awakening in “Brahman” was but a dream
within a dream (within a dream) — while still an immense awakening
from a deeper dream; I can’t deny the meaning it then had or may
still have. My defense of the experience was like a toe I kept in
that old dream-puddle, in case any fish wanted to nibble at it,
wonder what’s above the toe, and grow legs of their own and climb out
into the air. But it has led to much more — to the “Council of
Masters” here at FFL, wherein to my surprise and delight I am
learning and growing from it now more than I did then. Watching (and
being) “another” move into “Brahman” (or whatever) for example, is
infinitely more fun than the original experience was, and it is
affecting my physiology powerfully, more powerfully than this
bodymind has felt anything in many years.

…I think in essence all enlightenment claims ARE meaningless, at least
to those to those who firmly believe themselves unenlightened, or who
are perhaps awakening from an entirely different dream, and who
cannot recognize or identify with what the person is talking about or
Being. There is no shame in that. BEING comes in all shapes and
sizes; you only have to hang with the one(s) that fit for you, NOW.
The claims are not at all meaningless to those who are themselves
ready to awaken from the particular dream that the claimer has
awakened from, and/or who share karma with the claimer’s remnant. And
those who are awakened from that particular dream, recognize it
(usually) when another is awakened, the I tickles the I (at least so
far as the residual conceptual-mind framework allows them to see it).
So perhaps the more important question to ask is, “Do I feel drawn to
be with/around this person right NOW?” And, eventually, as one
continues to awaken, “Can I realize that my Pain is also perfect, and
no one’s ‘fault’?”

…I would say (again) it is very important to pay attention to the
crap beneath the rose-bush, or the man behind the curtain. :-)

…I really dug being the Guy who Knew it All, who
could “help” everyone. And at the same time, I kept running up
against the boundaries of my ignorance, of continually assuming I
knew more than everyone else, and she really helped me with that. :-)

…If there’s one thing I am learning from all of this, it is that I
cannot judge another’s Enlightenment; I can only ask if this person
might have something of value for me NOW. I greatly enjoyed dipping
into Adi Da’s books in 1983, as I greatly enjoyed reading Alice
Bailey, etc. I personally don’t give a rat’s tail if they
are “enlightened” or not. If I get something out of what they’re
saying; if they add to my own consciousness; if they wake something
up in me, then I try to listen and absorb it. I take the best and
leave the rest. (If what they’re saying sounds like the same-old-same-
old, they may well be enlightened, but no matter how “right” they
are, if I’ve already learned the particular lessons they are
teaching, or if they just don’t resonate with me NOW, then I move
on.) But I respect their awakening…as I do anyone who provides
something of value, regardless of what yardstick they may or may not fit on.

As Tom has beautifully pointed out, the yardstick — any yardstick —
is a HUGE mistake, albeit a potentially useful one to measure
YOURSELF ALONE on, if you feel like doing so, and if you remember it
is only a model, a map, a perspective drawing of some people’s
memories of something that had meaning for them, and is but their
necessarily-flawed attempts to communicate it.

…Again, while on the one hand “By their fruits ye shall know them,” on
the other we really cannot judge the quality of Enlightenment by the
quality of the karmic pain unfolding around them. It may well be that
the highest Enlightenment releases the hugest amount of pain. I have
definitely found that in my own life. By that standard my
own “enlightenment” was indeed small potatoes. All I know for sure,
is, God winces when we try to measure Him/Her. Or perhaps I should
say, the very attempt to measure stems from Pain (or concrete mind,
which is essentially the same thing).


For me, the “Brahman” approach was apparently customized…. It
became clear that every state of consciousness is always available
for anyone at any time, whether we know it or not, and we are always
consciously or unconsciously selecting the one(s) we most want at
that moment. Consciousness was a function of desire! So I tried out
everything I knew (all the “old” states of consciousness), realizing
that there had to be something more, figuring out what I wanted NOW,
claiming it, and then BAM! being surprised by the result (to put it
mildly). The actual experience itself was/is identical (I suspect)
for everyone, but I didn’t at all understand the Nature of where I
would end up; I only knew that now I could/had to actually figure it
out and CHOOSE. (Or so it seemed *lol*.) The Understanding creates
the experience. And the experience transcends the Understanding.

As Tom has also said, this involves freeing oneself from the very
yardsticks one has used till now to measure oneself by. I think this
is because all the yardsticks are in the conceptual mind,
and “Brahman” is way beyond anything but “Perfection, NOW.” The mind
just completely gives up and dies, at least in one sense. And for me
anyhow as apparently for Tom, the Witness itself (what I would call
the Solar Angel) also dies, or goes home, so there is no longer any
intermediary between one’s bodymind and the emptiful bodymind of the
World. Again, this is distorting it, making too much of it, hanging
more conceptual “laundry” on it. But it is the best I can do at the
moment. The main thing is, it is the simplest thing (un)imaginable;
all my life I had been looking “beyond” THAT while unknowingly
utterly being it and being immersed in it.

…It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that every
place/time/dimension is a god-dream. Some dreams are “bigger” than
others and include or appear to include lots of smaller god-dreams
inside them. When we waken from one, we are (essentially) co-existent
with the god that is dreaming that one. When we move into “Brahman,”
we are discovering the bodymind of the Planetary Logos, the World-
Soul. Over the next few unfoldments, we may come to know His soul and
His spirit, become (for a time) Sanat Kumara, as more and more
dimensions of how Our own Mastery and dynamics of Creation unfold. If
that makes any sense. And yes, we still have junk to work out on the
relative. :-) In one sense, this is all just poetry, meaningless. It
should NOT be taken to mean that someone going through this is to be
worshipped, etc. They are just learning Self-Mastery, becoming “a”
Master. Period. Not “your” Master. Never “your” Master, if I am
right, but that may just be my anti-guru bias. :-)

And at that same time, while the path is apparently a personal one,
there is (or are) distinct “milestones” that some at least are able to
agree on.

…All glory to
those who have gone before; the road can be rough especially when (as
far as you know) you are one of the first to navigate it. Let’s be
grateful to them for smoothing our path! We get what get; we take it
and learn and grow and improve upon it, so we don’t have to visit
the “sins of the fathers” upon the children. Take the best and leave
the rest, I guess. Forgiveness is a HUGE part of that.


…I am not at all certain that this model is particularly
(ever or always) useful, though it came from a good place (Sirius
perhaps *lol*) and would appear to be a logical unfoldment of what
went before, and it bears interesting resonances with the I Ching and
64 DNA codons etc. Logic goes in straight lines, though, where the
Path is perhaps a spiral, or a Leela-board, and I currently value
Ignorance more than Knowing in this regard. Actually there is a lot
of excitement around the concept of its being a Leela-board. If you
take the 64 initiations as an 8 x 8 grid, a chessboard, a periodic
table of consciousness, this allows for some of the harmonic
resonance noticeable between different states of Self, and encourages
us to view the whole “path” in a more non-linear manner — with all
the states available at once or cognizable at (seeming) random even,
where one’s motivating Path-type (jnana, bhakti, raj, etc.) could be
seen as a chesspieces with correspondingly different patterns of
movement into and across the different states of consciousness. It
might be an interesting exercise at least to unfold this as a real
chess-game, with perhaps the yogic paths and pieces as Solar and
Lunar (King), Mercury/Jnana (Queen), Venus/Bhakti (Bishop),
Mars/Kundalini (Knight), Jupiter/Karma (Rook), and Saturn/Hatha
(Pawn), or whatever other assignments seemed more apt.

I am suspending belief or disbelief in it for now; I am not
particuarly ready to “incarnate” in it at the moment if you take my
meaning. If it holds some meaning for you, great, but I wouldn’t use
it as a Procrustean bed and chop off parts of Your experience that
don’t happen to fit the model. (Not that You are likely to.) That of
course would keep me from learning new stuff, from and through You.
Also, I am not sure exactly what you mean by “human body” — are we
still “human” even in so-called CC or GC or BC? The physiology
absolutely changes; we certainly aren’t “human” upon physical
Ascension, as far as I can see. And at the same time, more human than
ever. I would hesitate to constrain the “human body” arbitrarily to
any preconceived notions, as of now anyhow. If (as may well be the
case) the whole Planet is even now actually Ascending (so-called),
what we take for human here would previously have been inconceivable
(I always think of the “Princess Bride” and the Sicilian thief
lisping: “Inconceivable!” when I hear that word now *lol*).

…There is a really nice site called Atmanet
(www.innerlab.com/atmanet/index) which describes the Theosophical
terms far better than I ever could.

[Comment on:  In your framework, Higher Self is God (Spirit).
and Lower Self is Goddess (Soul-Matter).
…This is not entirely mine; it came in part from Gnostic Christian
material. While there are interesting elements of truth there I would
be leary of assigning sexes on any permanent basis :-)

Also as one goes through different unfoldments, what one takes as
one’s Higher and Lower Selves apparently changes, where what was
higher becomes lower; what was one’s ruling deity (ego or concrete
mind etc.) becomes upon more rarification viewable perhaps as a demon
that must be vomited out. :-) Just to take an example at random. :-)

…Perhaps Purusha and Prakriti. That’s what I am being told at
themoment anyhow. Or in the Gospel of OMG, the Eggman and the Walrus.
(That was brilliant, too, as You know.)

…I think it will be great to establish cross-references like that. I
never did it since I felt a need to put it into my own words, and in
more Western terms, and I strongly welcome a convergence.

…As far as I know, the Solar Angel is the Witness, which (of course)
we originally took for pure consciousness (and is indeed pure and
transcendent by relation to the conceptual-mind).

…I would hesitate to call the Solar Angel the Higher Self in any
permanent sense, although it plays that part very well up
until “Brahman.” The Solar Angel can appear above the crown chakra,
etc., or anywhere else I suppose; it surrounds and enfolds one at the
so-called Unification or Soul-Merge (again, not at all sure if this
experience is necessary or consciously appreciated by everyone;
probably isn’t); it is only in terms of the Brahman-body that we
would put it in the Solar Plexus, as it is the intermediary (Soul)
between Spirit (crown) and Matter (feet). Again, this is just a 3-D
Self-portrait, necessarily skewed and incomplete.

[Comment on: In the third initiation the two Selves begin to merge … This
 Initiation [is where] the Initiate merges with his or her Solar Angel.

Yes, so it appeared anyhow. For me this was a few years
after “completion of the “kundalini” and a few years before “Brahman.”
So I called the kundalini the Astral/Baptism (sex center, subtle
body); the Soul-Merge the Mental/Transfiguration (navel center;
mental plane; dense soul), and the Brahman-plunge the
Causal/Crucifixion (middle soul). It’s really only in “Brahman”
(says the model) that we cross over, directly apprehend and BEGIN to
perceive the upper-half or Spirit. The heart or buddhic plane of
perfection, peace, and intuition (subtle soul) becomes our new hang-
out place. (Putting it in Gnostic Christian terms seemed important at
the time as an enlivenment of what we would call the Western

…Who am I, anyhow? I don’t think there is really
an Initiate. No one ever gets initiated, or initiates, either,
I suspect. Just THAT playing with itself. Like anything,
this model of Initiations too will dissolve into bliss upon
close examination. But you could say that IT changes through the
unfoldments, as the sense of self shifts. As always I welcome your
insights or additions or corrections, of course.

[Comment on : …in your scheme, subtle bodies
(astral casual, budhic etc are not soul.]

In this model, Spirit, Soul and Matter are each composed in turn of
three bodies. (These three are probably simply the three gunas, come
to think of it.) So that gives us Dense Body (Feet, elemental),
Middle Body (Base, physical), Subtle Body (Sex, astral); Dense Soul
(Mental or concrete mind, navel), Middle Soul (Causal, solar plexus),
Subtle Soul (Buddhic, heart); Dense Spirit (Atmic, throat), Middle
Spirit (Monadic, eye), and Subtle Spirit (Logoic, crown). And
correspondingly I guess Tamo-tamo-guna, raja-tamo-guna, sattva-tamo-
guna, etc.

Soul is the Higher Self until it is dissoved during the “Brahman.” In
Brahman and above, you have a new higher Self, one that feels at
first to be (again) utterly Transcendent, in a way that the Soul was
no longer really feeling. I think I see what you’re getting at. That
whole body thing is ONLY in terms of the big(ger) picture. In
subjective terms, the Solar Angel may be above the Crown chakra,
etc., but in the larger picture, its place is in the Solar Plexus. It
is as if we are climbing up the ladder of the Chakras, and what is
our Crown Chakra at certain stages becomes our Solar Plexus later, as
we “ascend” the ladder of the planets/chakras or (equally) “pull down
or manifest” the ladder into and through us, bringing Heaven to Earth.

[Comment on terms: Higher Self / God / Spirit ]

All these terms are essentially relative to each other, and so kind
of difficult (for me at least) to reify. Within the constructs up to
UC, Higher Self/God really “is” the Solar Angel, the Witness.
Afterwards it is seen for what it really was, a temporary construct.
Before “Brahman” one has no real contact with Higher Self/God/Spirit
(well, one does of course, as one is permeates with it — Madge,
you’re soaking in it — but one has effectively hypnotised oneself
into ignoring it resolutely.) After BC (as I understand it anyhow)
one becomes acquainted and identified with various forms of God:
Christ/Krishna, Siva/Karttikeya/Sanat-Kumara, and so on. Sometimes
these are essentially poetic descriptions of specific states of
Being; at other times they become very real indeed, in fact one’s
Self. Anyhow, for all intents and purposes, for the first 8
unfoldments, it appears that Siva/Sanat Kumara or the World Logos is
our “God/Sprit/Higher/Self” At later stages, not.

…Soul-Matter is a clumsy way of pointing out that in certain
Traditions She is considered Soul, in others Matter; in either case
meant in contradistinction to Spirit. As Soul is ultimately illusory,
the distinction is ultimately immaterial. She would be Prakriti, I

 * Soul — covered this one about as well as I feel up to at the
moment. More later, perhaps, if you have specific questions.

 * Solar Angel — same here.

 * Buddhic Archangel — I can’t say I ever experienced this one as
concretely as the Solar Angel, but it would be the indweller of the
Heart, subtle soul, focus of the buddhic or Intuive plane. To me
anyhow it really does feel as if Buddha really incarnates this one

 * Subtle body (vs soul) Subtle body would be astral body, analogous
to the electromagnetic force and upholder of the kundalini (the
garden for the serpent). It is the realm of the Brahmanic “vegetable
kingdom” — the flowers (chakras) and trees (nadis). It is the
Brahman-body’s realm of procreation, the Sex chakra. Soul comprises
the three levels “above” the subtle body: As mentioned, Dense Soul is
Mental (concrete mind in the Navel; ego); Middle Soul is Causal
(solar plexus); Subtle Soul is Buddhic (Heart). If the Sex Center is
the Brahmanic realm of Vegetable Procreation, the Navel (ego) is
primarily concerned with the so-called Animal Realm: issues of power,
movement, fight or flight, pecking order, etc. Because the concrete
mind is immersed in this realm, these issues are often not even
evident to it (unconscious) until it is transcended. The Solar Plexus
is the true I-center for the awakening Self, the place of
Transcendental consciousness, the Witness. This is the realm of the
Human (ideally anyhow). The Heart is the realm of the Ancestors, the
Sages, Saints, etc, as one is truly beyond time-space here and
desires are thus automatically fulfilled. Intuition is our “food”
here. If any of this is actually helpful I will continue at some
point, but again, it’s only a movie.

* Initiate –What initiate?

* store house of impressions — This is viewable in a lot of different ways,
I think. The one that may hold the most permanent meaning is the Realm of the Moon
(so-called), which I’ve been told is actually the outermost veil and
finest skin of the Solar System and which holds all the memories of
everything that transpired in this region. As such, it probably
corresponds in a way to Prakriti Herself (ultimate Yin), as the mate
of the Purusha or Solar Seed (ultimate Yang). This Bodymind is
analogous to our own bodymind of course, the storehouse of
impressions on the personal level. In the final (heh!) analysis these
two bodyminds are probably the same.

* the pea in the ghord that is Rory –Bodymind.

 * leshavidya –Bodymind.

 * the devas in each of the senses and organs of action.
 — The chakras each correspond to a sense: While there are I suppose 9 senses,
the traditional 5 are Hearing and vibration (Throat; Akasha);
Touch or feeling (Heart; Air); Sight (Navel, Fire); Taste (Sex,
Water); Smell (Base; Earth). We might say that “Understanding” is
Feet and Elemental. *lol*

* jiva — Not entirely sure. The tripartite Soul?

* atman — I believe this to be the same as the Atmic plane of Dense Spirit
(bliss-vibration, Brahman’s throat; Laughter). Open to correction.


…While the Higher and Lower Selves do have a polarity
to them which the Gnostic Church (and Hindus and others)
have ascribed as Male and Female, this is primarily to
describe the dynamic that they are opposite “poles” of
the same Godstuff. We have taken these to be God and Goddess,
Purusha and Prakriti, or Spirit and Matter, and our initial (somewhat
false) understanding of them is that they are separated, with
Spirit “above” us and Matter “below,” and the whole function of
Initiation is to progressively merge or marry these two back into
their Primordial Oneness. We can visualize Spirit and Matter
initially as two equal-sized circles stacked vertically; i.e. in a

Initiation, then, is the progressive merging of the two circles of
Spirit (Heaven) and Matter (Earth), but it can also be seen as the
temporary creation of an intermediary body or Soul: a third circle
(same size) overlapping the first two (with its top edge touching the
upper circle’s center and its bottom edge touching the lower circle’s
center), which connects and intercedes between Spirit and Matter
while they are still understood as separate. (Which is why we can say
that Initiations are in a way illusory, as the Soul itself is
essentially illusory; it is temporary, an echo-construct– in fact,
the Soul is probably where the leshavidya actually lies, your core-
response system. And we could also say that these three are the
Gnostic Trinity: Father Spirit, Mother Matter, and Child Soul; in the
Gnostic Tradition, only the (Christ-)Child “dies,” after/she has done
his/her job of interceding between Heaven (Spirit) and Earth (Matter).

If we take each of these circle-bodies and bisect them vertically,
and subdivide each vertical line into 8 equal parts (via the
9 “chakra”-points), we get the harmonics I was rather confusedly
trying to describe to you earlier. The lower circle’s 8 States of
Consciousness are Coma (from foot to base), Sleep (from base to sex),
Dream (from sex to navel), Waking (from navel to solar plexus, the
midpoint), T.C. (from solar-plexus midpoint to heart), C.C. (heart to
throat), G.C. (throat to brow), and Unity (brow to crown). The top
half of this Matter-circle overlaps the bottom half of the middle or
Soul (Initiation) circle, which encompasses T.C. (from foot to base),
C.C. (from base to sex), G.C. (from sex to navel), U.C. (from navel
to solar-plexus midpoint), B.C. (from solar-plexus midpoint to
heart), K.C. (from heart to throat), S.C. (from throat to brow), and
what I have been calling Maharishi Consciousness (from brow to
crown). So there are some interesting harmonics, where Coma resonates
with (occupies same chakra-region in its respective body as) T.C.,
Sleep as C.C., Dream as G.C., Waking as U.C., and then T.C. as
Brahman, C.C. as Krishna, G.C. as Shiva, and U.C. as “Maharishi
Consciousness.” (These last harmonics I am a little puzzled by, as I
would have originally have thought BC was more like CC, and KC like
GC, etc. But what do I know. The “I am I in everyone” which has been
getting clearer again lately and may be another aspect of Krishna,
does feel exactly like CC mutltiplied. And the highly sexual nature
of the physical ascension/immortalization would correlate with Dream
and GC.) Then moving to the Spirit-circle, we start with Brahman
(foot to base), Krishna (base to sex), Siva (sex to navel), and
Maharishi (navel to Solar Plexus), followed by another four states I
do not know the names of, and have not put much attention on. If
anyone knows the names of Guru Dev’s layers 12-16 (or all of them for
that matter), I would greatly appreciate hearing from you!

As to the devas in each of the senses and organs of action, I would
correlate them with the various planets that oversee the double helix
moving though the chakras associated with those senses: Thus Sun and
Moon in the Eye (the Pleroma, what MMY apparently associates with
Intuition); Mercury and “Isis” or South Node in the Ear/Throat
(Vibratory Space, Hearing, Atmic-Bliss Maya/Magic); Venus
and “Proserpina” or North Node in the Heart (Air, Touch, Intuition,
Feeling); Earth and Pluto in the Solar Plexus (I-sense, Ahamkara);
Mars and Neptune in the Navel (Fire, Sight); Asteroids and Uranus in
the Sex (Water, Taste), and Saturn and Jupiter in the Base (Earth,

Still haven’t looked up the official definition of jiva. I believe it
can mean both the unfreed soul and the freed soul (jivan-mukti), but
I suspect there are a few dozen people on here who can define jiva
better than I, and if we can find the definition, we can probably
find if and where it correlates in this system.


*lol* THIS is why I gave up after one course in Sanskrit! Trying to
tease apart those tangled compound words… Had no great love of
ambiguity, I guess. I have great respect for your devotion to the


…As I’ve said, my current “experience/choice”
 is primarily happy-ass Ignorance, where all
those supremely-important “states of consciousness” that consumed
me for so many years seem like so many dreams. That may just be a
function of getting old(er). Life smooths out, we realize we don’t
really want or need to be the world’s or anyone’s “Messiah,” and we
find our joys in the moment. But they were extremely important to me
once, and I am trying to honor that too. (I think I may have to let
that go, too pretty soon now. It’s just getting too old.) There is no
ultimate truth here; I can’t even say now that I “mastered” ANY of
the states of consciousness, though I would have certainly said so at
one time. The model that works best for me now is, we consciously or
unconsciously choose the stance or understanding which predisposes us
to value certain experiences over others we are immersed in, or
certain “lenses” perhaps through which we perceive, thus creating an
illusion of a particular and continuous state of consciousness. And
yet I also honor the experience of the path from “I” to celestial
perception to Unity etc. in theory, and in my own memory of what
happened overall, as well.

I guess my main point in being here was to mention the possibility
that we can get too addicted to the idea of a hierarchy and limit
ourself unduly by applying external criteria (and hence filters) we
don’t even deepdown want/need to experience NOW, and thus keep
ourself from appreciating the truly awesome state of awareness we
happen to be enjoying (or would be enjoying if we could stop
labelling it as the original Ignorance). Life isn’t or doesn’t have
to be that rigid. You can taste GC when you want/need to, and immerse
yourself in it if you want/need to, or just move on and taste
something else, and go back and taste something again that you want
to play with in a more profound way than you did the first time,
especially fun if you are with someone else who happens to be
enjoying that state too.

All that said, to play with the model again (I know, I know, it’s a
weakness of mine. I like patterns.), it might be more meaningful if
we drop Coma altogether and shift the next 8 states down one space.
This gives us Sleep through Brahman in the first or Mother-Matter-
Prakriti Body-Circle. Then, TC is the approach to and touching of the
solar-plexus midpoint (where the larger Soul-Body of Initiation
begins), and CC ranges from that midpoint to the heart, and GC from
the heart to the throat, and Unity from the throat to the brow, and
Brahman from the brow to the crown. (And again, this doesn’t mean
that each of the states doesn’t play through and enliven all the
chakras; it does.) I think this resonates a lot better both with my
memories and with MMY’s description of GC as opening of the heart,
etc etc. And MMY himself doesn’t include Coma as one of his states of
consciousness, come to think of it.

One problem with this model is, the Middle or Soul Circle of
Initiations now “begins” with CC instead of TC. I am not so sure that
is actually a problem, as TC is viewed as sort of a threshold
experience anyhow, a taste of things to come. And CC really was
subjectively the start of something new.

Another problem with it is the definite experience of BC as something
completely new, a threshold (like TC) but ALSO rock-bottom stable
(like CC, or more like even Waking state), and where all spirit and
matter are now directly perceivable as the same Stuff for the first
time, or at least where we actually perceive and open to the emptiful
Spirit for the first time. We might solve this by actually
overlapping the Matter circle and the Spirit circle so that they
share one space — Brahman. This really fits, for me at least. This
actually gives each circle 7 distinct states, not 8, with the 8th
being their common ground. (Or if you prefer, preserving them as
distinct, but ending one with Brahman and beginning the next with
Brahman as well.) If we overlap them, which I prefer at the moment,
then the Brow of Prakriti-Body is the Foot of Purusha-Body, and the
Crown of Prakriti-Body is the Base of Purusha-Body. This also fits
with my memory of being the Higher Self sitting (base) on the lotus
(crown) of the Lower Self.

[Comment on: the next 3 states: K.C., S.C., M.C.]

I feel a little funny about doing that right now, partly because
there still seems to be so much glamour around them that people will
again think I am “putting on airs.” But maybe it is worth it, if it
might stimulate some people to say “Oh yeah! I’ve been there!” or
awaken a true want/need NOW, and thus wake up more parts of
themselves. Actually, I think I would just refer you to the
Autobiography, parts 5, 6, and 7, where you can get more of a raw-
data feel for how they felt to me, and/or what I took them to be.
There is a layer of interpretation regarding the overlapping of
Higher/Lower selves that I understood later and attempted to apply
for further understanding of the dynamics of those states; you can
see clearly where that was added in, as it disrupts the continuity of
flow of the narrative to a degree. Feel free to accept or reject that
interpretive commentary (and everything else of course) as you see
fit. And afterwards if you have any specific questions, I’d be happy
to try to answer them, if I can. I am not an expert; I am an amateur.
I am just fumbling my way along, a happy idiot.


… I was engrossed in the idea of the Brahman-body-chakras
 in the 1980s and 1990s, wrote the original raw-data
memory-narrative in 1997 (I think), although calling it raw-
data is still something of a joke, in that I was operating by MMY’s
model to a large degree. A few years later while hashing it all over
again (and also realizing about then the surprising role or
synchronicity that Saturn apparently played in all this), suddenly
got the model of Higher and Lower Selves (the Gnostic framework of
Spirit and Matter or Purusha and Prakriti) approaching each other and
overlapping and merging through successive stages to create the
various modalities of so-called Initiation. (This was “bindu-
stimulated” by Freke and Gandy’s books, which outlined Gnostic
theology in a way that really made sense). That really excited me as
it seemed to “explain” or account for a lot of peculiarities around
the experiences, as well as for some really interesting accounts
which have been codified as mythology. So it was a hypothesis which
for me accounted for a lot of odd data.

Those interpretations or commentaries were interpolated later into
the narrative, as you can see by the interrupted flow. (I had been
thinking of making it clearer that this was my “post-game”
commentary; perhaps I’d better do that.) It is just a necessarily-
flawed model, and is most definitely open to revision, or throwing
out entirely for that matter. I think there’s “something in it” but
if no one else does, then it doesn’t; that’s OK and I am sorry to
have wasted your time. If others think it might be meaningful and
have other angles on it or additions or corrections, then perhaps we
may well (eventually) conjointly arrive at something actually
worthwhile and useful — or perhaps someone later will take it and
run with it, if the time is more ripe.

…while I am pretty sure that there are “macro”-chakras
in “Brahman” (or I should say, the World-Logos-body) that are the
hang-out spots for these states, as for example the Sex Chakra (and
electromagnetism) for GC, etc.; I doubt this is provable yet.

…at some levels they are indeed “only” symbolic until we
enliven them.

…it is not “just” symbolism (I don’t think), but some
extrapolation (or interpolation actually) was involved as well. There
are definitely (as far as I can tell) Higher and Lower Selves, or
apparent polarities to Spirit/Matter, and at certain points they
appear stacked up one above the other, and at others they definitely
seem to overlap etc. But I did not directly experience each of these
stages as clearly or as concretely as that at the time. It is my
belief that they do (or may) gradually merge or marry, as that is our
experience in terms of gradual spiritualization of matter or
materialization of spirit. But I am running on memory and
interpretation with a lot of this stuff, and memory is unreliable,
and so is (my) concrete-mind. The experience-flow itself is not (I
believe) as discrete or easily delineated or demarcated as any
attempt at measuring it would imply either. I am still groping for
the model that rings exactly right; I *think* at least the one given
in 16894 may be better. As I have mentioned, I reserve the right to
be inconsistent as further layers of meaning unfold. *lol* I am sorry
if the concept of the two poles of Spirit-Matter don’t make a lot of
sense at the moment; I guess I take them as an a priori experience
(or understanding *lol*).

…if that layer has not been activated, it effectively
doesn’t exist for us (yet). What we take
for nonexistence at one point, and then (normally)
transcendent but now accessible at another point becomes more and
more tangible and concrete and indeed manipulatable at other points —
thus Spirit (our new selves) materializing, and/or Matter (our old
selves) spiritualizing. So here I am, advocating an apparent
progression after all. Hm.

…You can have (probably will have) full kundalini
unfoldment, for example, activating ALL the chakras, and be
effectively in GC or whatever, but probably NOT in “Brahman,”
as “Brahman” is not dependent upon experience per se. (And it is also
my belief that one can probably experience “Brahman” without much
conscious experience of the so-called intermediary stages.) Perhaps
every state of consciousness (more or less) completely reactivates
and rebirths all the chakras with a new form of (more rarefied)
energy, which might be analogous to electromagnetic in GC,
strong/weak forces in UC, Plasma in BC, String Theory in Krishna
(perhaps), etc.

Around 1978 John Hagelin asked me to try to cognize what vibration
states of consciousness had. I replied that I wasn’t sure that
consciousness vibrated (as that wasn’t my experience at the time),
but I would give it a try. I came up with 10 to the 9th for CC, 10 to
the 13th for GC, 10 to the 23rd for UC, 10 to the 38th for BC, and 10
to the 53rd for KC. He had read Itzhaak Bentov’s “Stalking the Wild
Pendulum,” it turns out, where Bentov gave the first three of those,
which are the vibration-states of molecules (or cells ?), electrons,
and nuclei, as the vibrations of CC, GC, and UC. This is kind of
neat, since the experience of CC, GC, and UC is (or seemed) a lot
like going through those progressively-rarefied states of matter.
(Now I am pretty sure I had also read Bentov sometime before, but
that model of vibrating consciousness meant nothing to me and I had
forgotten it until I stumbled across Bentov’s book again a little
while after I had spoken to Hagelin, reread it, discovered the model
there, and asked Hagelin if that was why he had asked. He said Yes,
and was excited about the 10 to the 38th for BC (which Bentov hadn’t
mentioned), as that apparently correlated with Higgs particles
(whatever they are). So we MIGHT be able to posit Molecular (?
Cellular ?) consciousness for CC, Electromagnetic for GC, Strong/weak
for UC, and so on.

…Again, not sure what is possible or not in a “human” nervous system.
When You were aware that your Heart-Love filled the entire room
 (nice experience!), was that human? Or something more;
what we might call the Saint? I don’t know. We humans
absolutely can have (what I might call) devic awareness of using
Divine energy to manifest specific events on Earth, even on a global
scale, if that is part of our Path. (And for that matter we can “be”
the dog, etc. too, and experience what appears to be that dog’s
sensory perceptions etc., if that appeals to us.) I suppose all this
is supported or played through a physiology or physiologies, yes, but
I am not sure if the model covers it.

It seemed obvious pretty early on that “my” consciousness was
certainly not dependent on my physical body, as I could leave it,
move around, explore, and then re-enter the physical body. You might
say that all this was predicated upon a more subtle bodily
physiology, but it is hard to see exactly how, unless you subscribe
to the traditional theory that the apparent “Astral” projection is
actually an illusion: which I think anyone who had experienced it
would find pretty funny. After that, more rareified bodies became
tangible. So I think it is rather that one is enlivening other
bodies, other physiologies entirely, (sometimes) much subtler ones,
though these may well and should align more and more perfectly with
the physical as well as we integrate. How much they actually change
the physical in doing so I don’t know, with the possible exception of
what I took to be the (taste of) physical immortality in ’86, which
seemed at any rate to convert the physical body itself to a bliss-
vibration higher than visible light and then down into light. After
about three days of that golden-body I decided to “step myself down”
again. Even so that had a terrific impact on me on all levels, one
that took probably eight years (more or less) to fully integrate and
ground. The body still quickens into light occasionally (more since I
have been on here, thanks to you guys), but not anything like to the
same degree. *lol* And again I really wonder if an external viewer
would notice much of anything different at all.

…The phsyiology does respond to the consciousness, though, definitely.

…To me, Higher Self was there all along, and not enabled by
 but perhaps enabling refined phsyiology (Lower Self).
I don’t think this is at all “provable” necessarily.
 It is an a priori assumption that allows the rest to work,
after it is allowed to be. Just like Brahman. *lol*

…You could say that the lower self was our apprehension of (only) more
dense states, gradually (perhaps) appreciating more rarefied states.
This can be viewed either as “our-(lower)-selves” moving “upward”
(before Brahman) or as “our-(higher)-selves” moving downward (after
Brahman). I don’t know how much more “laundry” can be pinned on it
than that. It was an attempt to describe the possible (subjective)
mechanics of ascension, or the (subjective) mechanics of
manifestation. The sign-posts look pretty “objective” to me (albeit
they shift a bit sometimes and adjust to “ring more true”, perhaps as
more of the concrete-mind dissolves, perhaps not), but they may not
have much of a hook on the so-called physical plane. I believe they
should, but they may not.

…it can be taken for poetry or a Self-portrait.
There is indeed some speculation involved, but mostly
to try to account for the patterns I believe I perceive. I can’t tell
you how or whether to use it. If it stimulates and awakens something,
great. If not, I’d let it go.

…I would say it was a framework that I incarnated for a while. I
am not at all sure it is valid at the moment (though I may just be
going through another transition phase, which are always ground-state-
ish and hard to define). But the fact that I have (as yet) felt NO
impulse to activate the states beyond what I have described (even
though perhaps “feeling” them in there in seed form), may well be
indicative the system is more flawed than I thought, or at least the
time has not yet been right, or who knows what.

…Understanding leads to experience, which then gets shuffled
or arranged to allow understanding to grow, which leads
to more experience, or doesn’t perfectly ring true but one can’t put
one’s finger on it yet, and then it gets a little clearer and awakens
other memories an experience to support that, etc. I cannot emphasize
enough that the model is flawed and imperfect, necessarily so.
Nonetheless it has been immensely helpful to me at times. It helped
bridge the gap between the I and the That in a way that seemed to
smooth everything out, describing how “I” actually “make” that.
Again, it may well be that everyone actually has to do something like
this for themselves; someone else’s map is just not going to do it;
the whole thing about Mastery is doing one’s own work/play. Yet I
hung it out there just in case it might stimulate someone else, as
other people’s maps have stimulated me.

…I have not written out those last ones
yet. They are there (I think) in seed form, but I have not any desire
to think about them, or investigate them (yet?). My “gut” tells me
they are there, and I have had some experiences (raw-data) that I
believe MAY fit the model, but I really don’t want to go there right
now. *lol* For whatever reason, I currently value an innocent
approach and don’t want to apply any yardstick to it at all. I have
no desire (at the moment) to pick through the rubbish, which is what
it feels like right now. Weird, but there it is. This may be to allow
a more refined model to surface, or (more likely) I just don’t want a
model anymore.

…it is only a model. It will never be the
whole truth. But it is (or has been) in an odd sense my body; as it
gets refined, my body gets refined, and vice versa.

It is like the assignment of the astrological planets to the various
signs. This is a model that has been used for millennia, and
generated useful results. I used it a lot and got meaning from it.
Over time I found elements in it that didn’t ring true for me and I
(despite resistance from the conscious mind, which loves things just
the way they are) adjusted the model *to fit myself* and found it had
a lot more power, a lot more meaning for me that way. First came the
Taurus-Equinox-shift, which aligned the solstice line with the spine,
and paired the planets at the chakras. BAM! Meaning. I enlivened it,
and it enlivened me. Later, I found that the planets really formed a
perfect ida-pingala double helix through the wheel, and BAM! This
woke up a lot more. But the planetary rulerships in some cases felt
wrong, and i finally got that the Asteroids were a body that had to
be re-included, between Mars and Jupiter, and BAM, then the whole
planetary flow perfectly aligned itself and made “octaves” that
finally rang true, etc. Each of these re-creations aligned something
else in my body that allowed me to “be” more smoothly. I have shared
most of those “discoveries” on the Archives. To me they are obviously
correct (or more correct), and hold more meaning on the levels I care

To most other people they are gobbledygook (or psychosis *lol*). That
is only reasonable. If someone is saying something we have no frame
of reference for, he must be nuts. Right? *lol* I feel a lot more
sympathy for MMY now. (This place has been great, really adjusted my


…I tend to think that when one has “everything to gain”
 by perceiving something, one will perceive it;
that has been my experience generally. Of course
you might say this is wishful thinking or self-delusion. You may well
be right; all I can say is i never found delusions to be so
meaningful! It seemed infinitely less-delusional than the delusions i
had been operating under before, at any rate. *lol* I will be the
first to agree with you that there was a LOT more to be done. In
retrospect, knowing then what I know now (which of course is absurd)
I wouldn’t be so hasty to throw the word “Enlightened” around, though
the immersion was self-evident (and matched the criteria I had heard
of etc., albeit in a way i couldn’t have anticipated).

To me the unfolding of Love was automatic and self-evident, as
doubtless it was to MMY on the Science and Veda course, when mostly
(on the relative planes) all i saw was pain, suffering, disease,
confusion, and mismanagement amidst paranoia and high-flown claims of
personal infallibility. I held him personally responsible for all of
that, as it seemed to be emanating directly from him. But it wasn’t,
or at least not the way I thought it was.

…while I have heard or read some glowing reports from those
around him [MMY] in the early days, I have seen a lot of the other as well;
people seem to be divided on that. Many fell away in disillusionment
over what they saw as a naked need for power. Again, it seems to have
been a mixture. Trying to figure it out in the abstract is probably
useless anyway.

…I trust people more than that, figure they can
take what they need (if anything) and leave the rest. I know I have
gotten a lot from people that appeared immensely flawed and had even
higher opinions of themselves and their Enlightenment than I ever
did! Take the best and leave the rest. …

…no one is drawn to everything, or has something to gain from everything.
I too now find that sort of healing/channeling circle immensely boring.

…The obituary of Rory Goff: “He made Life less dull.”
I can live with that! *lol*

I tell you now in all seriousness — if you believe otherwise, you are
judging it and me from a mistaken mind.

…Again, BRAHMAN is not an EXPERIENCE. It is self-evident, unshakeable,
simple understanding.

…I no longer claim enlightenment or anything else, and I don’t heal
anyone unless they ask me. Sometimes not even then. *lol*

Be warned, Ignorant ones! I WILL NOT AND CANNOT ENLIGHTEN YOU! *lol* There!

…I currently don’t care whether you or anyone else thinks I
am enlightened or the world’s worst demon seeking to entangle
everyone further in the snares of Maya, or just a jerk with too high
an opinion of himself. It doesn’t matter. Maybe I am only here on FFL
to keep it from being dull. *lol* Quickening tamas would not be too
bad an effect. I guess everyone has to decide for himself or herself.

[Rory’s wife, Rena, wants to keep this question in, as a reminder!]  
Are you sure you’re choosing this rather than hiding from the risk
losing Rena if you put yourself in tempting situations again
involving the adoration of female followers, or being too riveted
by the attention in general?

I don’t *think* I would still be tempted; I don’t anymore feel those
particular cravings or desires or even thoughts, but who can say,
really. I do prefer living an “ordinary” life with Rena to going out
there again; it just seems a lot saner. The universe seems to be
taking care of itself just fine.

…if you don’t like apple pie, that’s OK. Just don’t eat it. Do you
really think I am dangerous in some way? Do you feel in some way
responsible for me? Or for others? That’s all I am asking.

…If you believe you’re enlightened, more power to you.
If you have abandoned the yardstick entirely, and realized
that it is essentially meaningless, even better. …

…claims of spiritual enlightenment mean nothing
 to me whatsoever; if what the person is saying or being resonates,
great, I can feel their “enlightenment” because it sings with mine (oops).
 If not, not. That’s OK too. And again, for what it’s worth,
I don’t claim to be enlightened in any final or even semi-final
or even semi-hemi-demi final sense of the  word;
from what I have seen that is an absurd claim.

…But let’s for sake of the argument say you’re right, and I was incredibly
immensely deluded. So what? Am I leading anyone astray? Are they that
stupid? No, not that I can see; anyhow. It appears that others who
have gone through the same thing get what I am saying, as I get what
they are saying. That should count for something, I would think.

…If you don’t like apple pie, you don’t like apple pie. If you don’t
like me, you don’t like me. It’s OK. Tell everyone you like.

OK — Let’s set the record straight, once and for all. I’m serious,
now. Hey everyone! My claims are obviously self-aggrandizing! Don’t
let them delude and confuse you! They are downright Baroque if not
Rococco! They will lead to God only knows What! My ego is HUGE! I am
in utter Ignorance, and what’s worse, I utterly enjoy it! I am not
your Savior! I am not your Guru! I am not your Master! If you have to
follow someone, go follow some Saint and let me be! OK — we cool


I’ve said often here that I don’t really care for any model right now,
personally. I feel a bit of distaste about it, and a lot of distaste
about the whole yardstick/enlightenment thing. I prefer to fly blind
at the moment. If someone else enjoys any of it, cool. Take the good,
leave the rest. :-)

…Awareness isn’t always simple.

…Believe it or not I do generally prefer simplicity. I am not overly fond
of the model personally; I don’t adhere to it, I no longer incarnate it.
But I am fond of connecting with people, and if they take some pieces
of it and have fun with them, I love that! It is the fun, the awakening I love,
NOT getting bogged down in the system.


…I enjoyed playing with the model again, the other day, and the tweaked model
may account for more, and be closer to aligning with MMY’s etc. as
well (which is always fun), but in all honesty I cannot take it
seriously any more, or say that it captures the TRUTH, or ever will.
There’s no way that it could; even if it came close it would
instantly “kill” it! Something like a photograph. Perfect (albeit
flat and lifeless) in that moment, and gradually becoming less and
less like the “real” person.

…That is really all it is, fun. It can be stimulating,
enlivening, etc., but I find it gets dull when someone tries to make
it the Truth. (Or to make anything the Truth, for that matter.)

…I genuinely think there is (potentially)
some great stuff there, if one happens to be in the particular space
to appreciate it. It doesn’t happen to be that space especially for
me right now, and quite probably not for most others. *lol*

…*lol* Yes, I am inconsistent, and always will be, I hope.
Consistently inconsistent! *lol* I disavow it because it is not the
ultimate Truth, it is not even my Truth at present, and it pains me
somewhat when people even begin to approach it that way. But I offer
it because there is some nice material there (I think): if and only
if people are honestly drawn to it and enjoy it and it enlivens them
and quickens them, etc. I do love it when people look at it or some
part of it and it rings inside them, because then it rings inside me

It is like art. It’s already done, it’s on the wall, I am working on
something else or taking a break. I’ve moved on. But I still
(somewhat) like my old art, even if it’s not what I’m engrossed in
now. If someone doesn’t like my art, that’s OK; I respect that and I
respect them. When someone does like my art, when it speaks to them,
then we communicate on a very deep and sweet level. But if they said
this is the only art that works for them in the whole world, I’d have
to think they’re a little odd, and maybe sidle out of the gallery
while they’re not looking. *lol*

…By “Awareness is not always simple,”
I was just trying to say that when viewed through different
lenses, Life (or Consciousness) appears very different (to me at
least). I enjoy simple awareness, and for a while I also liked to
explore some other qualities emerging as that simple awareness
recognized and started to play with itself. Or so it seemed to me. It
was only my experience — or my interpretation of my experience, real
or delusional. If some of it rings, great. If it doesn’t, also great –
– set it aside or throw it out. I would much rather you did that than
worry about it or try to figure it out. I was an Art-History Major,
but even so I have to admit we can’t figure out art. We like it or we
don’t; it moves us or it doesn’t; pieces we liked last year are
boring now, or vice versa.

…Everything everyone has brought up in
here has helped me beyond words. This place is truly a gift from God,
and an unending flow of Grace. I noticed a nice change in my
awareness after reading and processing your last post. I did need to
be reminded of the simple! It was high time to let go of some more
old memories. *lol*

…I can neither laud nor denigrate what someone
else might call Ignorance; I can speak for no one’s state but my own
(if that). I am very happy indeed with my current state of Ignorance,
or Unknowing if you prefer, which in every respect (except for the
occasional oddity) seems like the place I started from, except I’m
done with seeking. I found what I was looking for and I am home again.

Again, this is not to say that I found what others are looking for,
or that I can help them find what they believe they want. It was fun
to think I could but I believe I know better now. *lol* People are
Perfect Masters at getting what they really want at every moment, it
seems to me, whether they wish to admit it or not.

…being in the now-moment, the real Ignorance.


…The more the merrier! I think maybe the indescribable is getting a
kick out of it. *lol*


…Though I must confess most Mainers chop water and carry wood.


Or this: What I took to be the absolute witness in CC turned out to
be the Soul; the so-called Absolute turned out to be celestial
(Blazing Light-Self, Solar Angel, whatever). And after I merged with
that (or vice versa) then there was no need for it anymore. For a
good while around that time I was in heaven. But after that
everything went to hell. Lost everything, I mean absolutely
everything and everyone I had had in the outer that had held any
meaning for me. The total suffering and bleakness focused the desire
to just GET THE JOB DONE. Enlightenment was the only thing that still
meant anything by then. And you do get what you long for
wholeheartedly, I feel, though it wasn’t anything like what I had
expected. In Brahman, the Soul (which by then I felt was me) died
(essentially), just kind of popped or let go, and there was
(essentially) nothing but Spirit/Matter, nothing to separate the
inner and the outer anymore. It’s all just perfect stuff. This is not
to say you don’t still percieive through your original body, mind,
etc. (at least for me), though that aparently changes (or can change)
too over time. The closest thing it can be compared to is (emptiful)
Ignorance. I think this is a tenet in Buddhism, but couldn’t supply
the text(s) ofhand. Buddhism certainly caught a lot of the flavor of
it anyhow, at least for me. (I know, Rococco, deluded, self-
aggrandizing, and jejune. *lol*)


…And that is why I am writing all this in the first place: Not to say
I have Attained and You haven’t, but rather to suggest that if you’ve
been meditating 15 or 20 or 30 years and you honestly feel as if
you’re in Ignorance, and just can’t seem to figure out why you maybe
feel so good anyhow, then you might want to reconsider your true
criteria for your own “enlightenment” now, in this moment. As many
here have rightly pointed out, I have a dramatic way of perceiving
things, and of putting them. All of these things are actually subtle.
You may be telling yourself, yeah, I had some strong witnessing a
long time ago, but then it went away, and/or yeah, I really felt
golden there for a while, but then it all turned to ashes, and then
there was just this kind of shift and everything became all right
after all, well that may be it for you. You may have followed MMY’s
signposts perfectly, but are still thinking you want permanent CC
when that state has become manifestly immature and inappropriate for
You. And that’s just if you did follow those particular signposts,
because Understanding is pretty crucial to valuing the experience you
do have.


That last sentence did not mean to imply that you’re “enlightened”
*only* if you follow those particular signposts, but rather,
*assuming* that you did and failed to recognize them and are thus
half-heartedly looking for criteria you have already learned and
don’t even really want any more — let alone the possibility your
path may have been or be Something Completely Different, as Monty
Python might say.


In fact, here’s the thing that has been tickling for awhile
…and finally crystallized: the very belief in leshavidya is
itself a joke. There is no leshavidya. There is only THAT. What else
could there be? Like it or not *lol* I am only THAT; You are only
THAT; and THAT is it; THAT is all there is. Period. I am utterly
Perfect, always have been, and always will be. You are utterly
Perfect, and You always have been; and You always will be. All of it
is THAT, Perfect; always has been, always will be. Even your belief
in Your own imperfections and My imperfections and all the rest is
itself Perfect. You can resist My Perfection and Your Perfection and
That Perfection all you want; but I own this game, and it is rigged.
You can’t lose. I am in You, and You are in Me — in THAT if You
prefer — and there is no place You can run to. Your very resistance
is also Perfect. You can run and play all You like; but there is no
escaping it, really. When You are ready to admit it, You are home.
There was no place to leave from; there is no place to go. Welcome


YES I have been noticing this a lot lately too! The day-to-day outer
experience is often almost thinner than mist; 99% of my mind (give or
take) is involved in its own world(s).

… I have been trying to consciously shift more attention
to the outer plane lately though when around others, and really
focusing on them, and when I do I’m often if not always rewarded with
a click or a flood of connectedness and Love with the other person or
people present. If possible you might give it a try. Sometimes it’s
almost a tunnel-effect; no-space being the two as one. Sometimes it
is a lot subtler. But the people always light up; they really seem to
dig it and it makes you feel great; in rococco terms I think it helps
ground Heaven into Earth. Well worth the “sacrifice.” *lol*

…I think MMY once was quoted on here as saying at first the
Inner is abstract and the Outer is concrete, but later the Inner is
Concrete and the Outer is abstract (or something like that anyhow).
And perhaps the “line drawn on water, then air,” etc. may apply here.
Maybe all we can do is when we notice we are off the outer (and we
are “supposed” to be out there), easily come back to the outer
(*lol*); try to favor it. It’ll love you for it, and so you actually
give and gain even more, or so it seems to me, since Love is the
currency of evolution.

…I always thought it was outward, then inward, then outward … like
that, like that.


I appreciate that Truth is different through different lenses, Dr.
Pete, but how is leshavidya only for waking state? (Unless you mean
by waking state something different than I understand it
conventionally to be?) The idea of the demonic as being opposed to
THAT etc. still seems to hold for celestial consciousness, and even
in Unity I don’t believe one appreciates the simplicity of THAT being
truly all there is. And maybe this is (primarily) so-called BC
through the nervous system of (an)other(s), rediscovering myself
again from another angle, but I don’t recall KNOWING this about
leshavidya before. Not the way I do now anyhow. But then, I am not
sure I considered leshavidya much at all before this; it never seemed
to be an issue. Either way, it would appear my understanding
while “complete” in one sense maybe was yet still quite incomplete
(and no doubt still is). Popping this illusion (which would seem
logically to be quite an obvious one) was pretty intense and took
some hours to work its way through my system(s). THAT is waking up in
a new way for me.

(THAT has contracted into Krishna-point(s) of vibrant personal bliss
before, but not truly as Me, and this time THAT didn’t pinpoint, nor
laugh into particles, etc.; now I/THAT/I AM REALLY PERSONAL. I can
still at times hardly stand the baroque immensity of this self-
aggrandizing delusion.)

…There are plenty of Advaitic religions that always
appealed to me more intuitively than the dualistic ones,
though; why invoke an unnecessary illusion; pretend there is
a “this” at all? To preserve the falsehood that God is “good”
and not “evil” too? Wouldn’t it simply be better to explain
that you have to drop all that before you can understand Brahman
anyhow? I mean we could put it in pretty simple terms: As long as you
are addicted to good and bad, you can’t truly transcend either and
embrace holiness, alchemical bliss? Judge Me or Love Me; the choice
is Yours?

…All beings in Me are My children; You are
all playing one game or other immersed in My love; at any moment You
are free to drop everything and remember Me. Or THAT, if You prefer.

…While the God-Planets are (pretty)
clearly floating dreamlike in THAT/ME/THAT, and I am at least
intermittently awake as various forms, I can’t say much more than
that at this point. I think more work/play/awakenings must unfold.


…Yeah, it can be earthshaking all right. *lol* Sometimes even a
paradigm-shift of Copernican proportions.

…When I value(d) and need(ed) the celestial,
I perceive(d) it; when not necessary or useful, then not.
I did not find it at all desirable while making the inquiry into
Perfection. It is rich and satisfying at some points, not the desired
truth at others. Apparently, I am not allowed right now to perpetuate
or advocate a linear sequence.

…Understanding and experience reinforce each other; for me THAT came
as a result of a conscious desire and change in Understanding. My
view has changed quite a bit since yesterday however! I understand
now it may well not be THAT way for all. THAT is actually GOD, Who
responds to any approach a creature may take whatsoever, and takes
whatever form the creature desires, so long as Love is truly there.
Love calls to Love and Love has no choice but to overflow and respond
to Love. Apparently what you most love, you are, whether it be this,
THAT, or the Other.


…leshavidya never meant much of anything personally until
coming onto FFL, when it seemed an apt concept. Recognizing the
absurdity of it was kind of profound. THAT awakened more, or in a new
way, becoming literally “I,” My ego. I know this won’t do it justice,
but I AM THAT became THAT AM I. This appeared to be Krishna.

(Which makes my mind leap to the possibility that we might see I AM
ALONE IS as BC; and then THAT AM I as KC, THAT ART THOU as
Shiva/Shakti, and THAT is ALL THIS as so-called Maharishi C. This is
all at the moment a hypothesis, Just Another Model or JAM. But I kind
of like it. It also may tie in with the traditional conjugation of

There was apparently no difference between the impersonal and the
personal GodSelf; for the first time THAT personally became Me. (By
distinction, the angel-spheres singing, and the god-spheres dreaming,
had appeared intermittently over the years, as also the qualities of
Krishna “in” me, but — never known that THAT awakened was literally
My ego.) I hasten to add that today, by contrast, I have lived
an “ordinary” day, with no desire whatsoever to be ME again, and only
occasionally “touching” the missing-tooth in my mouth with my tongue
(so to speak) and falling into the emptiness in everything (Well
mostly empty, with all the little points in there. But this is NOT
what was going on yesterday.)

[Comment on: are you …speaking in terms of a metaphor,
or in symbolism. Or perhaps borrowing a concept from a book you

No, and no.

…*lol* It was the body-based experience resulting from or accompanying
a new intellectual or conceptual understanding: the joke of

…I had never consciously known that an Ocean and
currents of Love were actually emanating from THAT as ME. And that
may well be delusion too, I suppose. Doesn’t feel like it though. :-) )

…Heart of GOD? As focussed through you? In other words, YOU YOURSELF?

…That appears to correspond to what I was feeling on the Inner
yesterday. I was seeing and loving My children within Me on the
Inner; You were loving them within You or THAT on the Outer. That’s
the closest I can guess to what was “really” going on yesterday,

…I do know that one can see, hear, touch, and merge
 with both angels and various forms of God, and know them
as around, over and within oneself in the celestial realms,
and that “miraculous” support of Nature can (apparently) result
from this level of interaction. For me this was rich and
sometimes more or less continuous, but not always. (This was
about 1978, it’s not too close to me at present.) I do know that
seeing or even being God and being GOD are also two very different
propositions. I don’t just mean channeling or merging with God
(although in itself supremely satisfying), but this yesterday was
Something Completely Different, in that there was NO Difference. No
(unconscious) leshavidya. Or so it seemed. But that was then; this is
now. *lol* I have chosen to believe in a little separation again.
That’s also OK, and perfect. As soon as I wish, I am back to Me, as
is true of everyone to whatever degree they choose, I strongly

…Apparently, the siddhi for seeing celestials is generated from
attention in the back of the head, though this may be a
mistranslation. The visual cortex (?) is back there, I believe, and
from there perhaps wired into the brow. I never paid any real
attention to this siddhi. I did find that when gaining “clairvoyance”
or appreciation of some subtle efffects (auras, etc.) there was a
pleasurable stimulation of the third-eye. The angels, gods, gold-
light, (small!) love-flows, etc., were all spontaneous developments
for me. While absolutely lovely, I still knew at the time they
weren’t “real” in the deepest or ultimate sense, from MMY’s
teachings. I still wanted more.

…I am not sure I am qualified to comment on gradations of the
celestial in any meaningful way from this vantage point. There is
very much a difference between Angel or God (some form of God one may
happen to be interested in at the moment) and GOD (the totality of
one’s being, devotion, etc.). This thing lately appears ABSOLUTELY
different from the so-called celestial, though there are certainly
similarities, in that the God-spheres/Universes are now again
important as being inside My body, etc. But they simply aren’t the
big thing, they are ancillary and subservient to Me. This was obvious
to Me yesterday, anyhow. *lol*
YES I found this [wanting to pull the divine out of an inanimate object]
to be the form of wholehearted desire that cracks the Self/Soul wide open
enough to really let God (orGOD)in.  That’s what I was speaking of
when I was saying Grace HAD to pour in when one opened to one’s
wholehearted desire. There are actually some scriptures that refer to
this Absence/longing as a necessary (?) stage of bhakti/devotion…

…especially around 1986-87 I think, after “BC”
and when first approaching GOD and discovering
the personality of Krishna and/or Shiva as my GOD/Self.
Not so much since then, as far as I can recall offhand anyway.

…One facing GOD (need), one with GOD “behind” us (identity or flow

…it takes our “eyes” or “I”s a while to adjust to the different
intensities of Love/Light/Laughter involved. *lol* Also, to see a
deva/God(s) involves much less of a shift of consciousness in the way
actually approaching and identifying with GOD does. Issues of
deserving, guilt, blame, deepest desire, utter need and helplessness,
love, and responsibility come into play when one is dealing with the
latter that (to me at least) were almost irrelevant for the former.


…the very certainty that we have the experience at all is (perhaps) an
unconscious reaction to the fear that maybe we’re not, after all.
Which of course would seem to be a lot closer to the primal chaotic
(essentially I-less) “truth” . (Though this last sentence alone is so
freighted with assumptions that it too is almost meaningless.) The
further correlate would seem to be that that very feeling that “I am
not experiencing much of anything,” which we may have taken to be
Ignorance, may be closer to the original (?) “truth” than any
grasping of any experience — even the Eureka, paradigm-shift, inside-
out world-flipping ones — at all. I am not getting any detectable
body-response or adjustment to this idea at the moment (the key I
have used till now to evaluate the relevance of most insight for me,
in this moment), but hey, what do *I* know? Not a damned thing.

Kind of along these same lines, yesterday I “discovered” Sherwood
Anderson’s “Winesburg, Ohio,” and read on pp. 2-3: “That in the
beginning when the world was young, there were a great many thoughts
but no such thing as a truth. Man made the truths himself and each
truth was a composite of a great many vague thoughts. All about in
the world were the truths and they were all beautiful….There was
the truth of virginity and the truth of passion, the truth of wealth
and of poverty, of thrift and of profligacy, of carelessness and
abandon. Hundreds and hundreds were the truths and they were all
“And then the people came along. Each as he appeared snatched up one
of the truths and some who were quite strong snatched up a dozen of
“It was the truths that made the people grotesques. The old man had
quite an elaborate theory concerning the matter. It was his notion
that the moment one of the people took one of the truths to himself,
called it his truth, and tried to live his life by it, he became a
grotesque and the truth he embraced became a falsehood.” (Dover,
1995, first published in NY by B. W. Huebsch & Co. in 1919.)


YES — This is the crux of it: What do I really want, NEED, in THIS
moment? Inquiry into that (when appropriate) is I believe crucial.
Until one desires “enlightenment” or (more accurately perhaps) GOD
above all else, one will continue to receive (apparently) the things
one (apparently) desires/needs more first. Grace in action, and all

…YES I am truly sorry if what I wrote (apparently) made others
feel “less.” It is ridiculous to compare one’s life with others’. Yet
I always enjoyed reading others’ “enlightenment experiences” so much
that I thought sharing mine wouldn’t hurt. But (as mentioned) I do
have a dramatic system, and a dramatic way of expressing things, that
needs to be countered with the reminder that a) everyone’s path is
different; b) these things are actually subtle; c) ‘flashy’ doesn’t
mean ‘more advanced’; d) You are already “enlightened,” whether You
like it or not — it’s just a matter of how quickly You wish to admit
the truth about yourself. It just depends on where Your desire truly
lies. What are YOUR criteria? (Again, this does not mean we don’t all
continue to learn and grow.)


I can hear GOD/DESS saying, “Until You grow Yourself a pair, You
won’t know Me.” *lol*


…Everything I experienced today was a supreme
blessing and learning experience for both my wife and me. Much of it
was “flashy.” But singling out one or another portion and posting it
here — “flashy” as that part may be — tears it out of context. Were
I to outline it all it might exmemplify how (for me) GOD works in,
through, and as us, using our so-called mistakes as opportunities for
the error-perceivers to relax into greater trust, Love, bliss, etc.,
but in this particular instance (out of respect to my wife’s desires)
much of it must remain confidential. Anyhow, the gist appears to be
the same everywhere — as long as we agree to see mistakes, we are
choosing a viewpoint that itself is in error, identifying with a
consciousness that is “slower” and “denser” than GOD (or “another”)
and hence by nature (apparently) feels “pushed around,” “wounded,”
and “betrayed” by GOD (or “others”)(with apologies to the “Lazy Man’s
Guide to Enlightenment,” which put this a lot better and is well
worth reading.)

And again, there is nothing wrong with this choice — in fact,
expressing that point of view (if felt to be authentic) actually is
as useful to the whole picture as everything else is, and equally
contributes to everyone’s growth. It is better than denial! And it
must (often or always?) be heard and acknowledged — actually felt by
another — to be healed. And then when we’re tired of suffering, we
may remember and relax into a place that doesn’t suffer, instead of
or in addition to trying to change the outer, which while useful in
specific instances may never actually solve the root-problem of all
our sufering.

Yeah, I feel sorry for my wife, too. For some reason she Loves me
anyway. As I said, I am blessed.


…ceasing to believe in it was
very helpful. Perhaps there are layers of it (“six degrees of
separation” *lol*), and as you erase one layer, and integrate that
much “Absolute,” then the “Relative” does indeed become that much
more transparent. So it seems at the moment. Originally I would have
said that THAT was neither Absolute nor Relative, but completely
unqualifiable and comprising all of it, but I am not so sure of
anything anymore. I just know I feel more quickened. My body is
different and so the world is different. I feel it may finally be
time to see what happens if we push the throttle to the limit.

I realize now that all those old experiences were indeed “suffering”
in that I had to hold onto them until they were heard, acknowledged,
felt by other(s). You all here have been the most amazing counselors!
You have clarified so much! I feel now I can finally release the past
and move on. I deeply appreciate the invaluable service you and
everyone here on FFL has done for me, and for my world. What the end
result (if any) might be I cannot guess, though your thought
certainly sounds logical. I am sure there are those here with more
experience and understanding than I who could answer that better.


…that is THAT! Better than I articulated it, I
think. So ironically simple, right in front of your face the whole
time. *lol*


…I cannot speak to MMY’s consciousness, but can
 definitely attest to some of these points
from my own personal experience. (Most of this stuff we
have covered already, but it can’t hurt to reiterate it I suppose.)

First, the so-called THAT awakening — while (to me)
unquestionably “real” — does NOT automatically bring about personal
maturity. In a way it may actually appear to regress one for awhile;
that obvious THAT-ness and Unity does (or can) seem to bring about an
almost infantile egocentricity. While it didn’t take long to see that
every one’s path was legitimate and perfect (I had to acknowledge
that on one level, as my own had been so heterodox), still I had to
be the leader, the one who knew it all. Worse, it has taken me a very
long time indeed (outside of counseling sessions) to understand
issues of confidentiality and to fully respect the other’s idea of
privacy and self-dom. I can always feel their pain when I have
trespassed these bounds, but I still don’t understand fully what to
do about it; it appears I don’t have the circuitry yet to FULLY
respect the other. While on the one hand it is all perfect, still, I
believe I definitely have more growing up to do; so that I don’t have
to continually “betray” another with my unthinking “honesty.” Yes it
is all automatic, but it’s getting old! :-)

Second, in some cases, what you note about MMY — that he expects all
others to fall in with him unquestioningly to serve his goals — may
be a symptom of what I have taken to be Krishna consciousness, where
it is quite obvious that one’s body contains an almost infinite
number of gods, all of whom appear amazingly willing to do one’s
will. It would appear that one could easily assume from the inner
experience that this must also be true in the outer. *lol* Which is
refreshingly not the case! *lol*

Finally, I heartily agree with your point about the desire to change
the “outer” — i.e. the world — being symptomatic of some inner junk
one might want to take care of first. It is a funny thing, but the
world looks better and better the more of my own personal stuff gets
cleared. *lol*


…I don’t know about “profoundly developed;” more like “Dang! How could
I have missed THIS so insistently!” *lol* If anything, a willingness
to settle for the profoundly simple, for the first time.

…Well, I think the first feeling was complete vulnerability, relief,
the end of it all, etc.. But yeah, it was not long before I was
thinking, “Wow! I did it! this is enlightenment!” And even
funnier, “I am enlightened!” *lol* And then, since there IS nothing
to do, and you do have some gifts, and everyone knows what
enlightened people do, well, that seems to be the pattern one
follows. *lol*.

…I am not sure if attainment is ever complete. Yes, one definitely
completes certain stages. There always seem to be more. As for subtle
ego, I think that is fair to say, yeah. *lol* It IS complete in one
sense, and just the very, very beginning in another. Were I able to
pay more attention to the latter truth than to the former, I might
have been (and be) less obnoxious. *lol*

…That came a bit later for me. *lol* I doubt I have mastered
any “final” temptation. It seems as if every stage carries its own
temptations, or puzzles to solve: Which is better — this or this?
Perhaps for some the temptation might be the reverse — to abandon
one’s dharma as a “world-teacher” and live a private life. Who knows?
I don’t know how to reconcile this with the automatic feeling either –
– I only know they are both there. Perhaps it is simply a matter of
attention — what one chooses to attend to. If there is really a
choice. There probably isn’t — it really is all Grace.

One might regard one¹s every thought and whim as Divinely inspired
and infallible.

YES — and of course they are [every thought and whim Divinely inspired]
 *lol* but by the same token so are everyone else’s.
I think that’s why it is so important NOT to
surround oneself (if one has a choice) solely with students or with
sycophants, but with people who don’t see you as their teacher. Or
who are at the very least free and encouraged to question minutely
and nail you, refine your understanding, show you your boundaries.

…I do not feel qualified to judge anyone else’s
 behavior. When someone speaks from an “awakened”
point of view that rings in me and resonates with where
I am, I know that that person knows, too. And that’s all I know about
that person, offhand. I believe I have heard more of that in here
than I do from most well-known spiritual teachers. I tell you — most
of the time I was living in Salem, I walked around with my personal
energy just over my head or in my brow or thereabouts. People
generally ignored me. When just for kicks I once tried moving my
energy into my belly — wow! Suddenly I was in their world; and they
looked at me respectfully, like their *Leader*. That’s how easy it
apparently is to be a leader on this plane — just move into your
navel (power center) when most others are apparently in their sex
center (pleasure) or base (survival). Truly a case of the half-blind
leading the blind. If you are hanging out too far above those
centers, you are essentially invisible, I think. *lol*

…Again, all I can really speak for is myself. I am not sure how wise
it is to induce general principles and apply them to others. The best
thing we get from a Guru is, “in what way does this mirror me to
myself?” And of course we get this mirroring from everything in
creation, if we are willing to hear/see it. If it bothers us in
another, it is an issue we aren’t done with in ourselves. That
whole “mote in his eye — two-by-four in my own” is often applicable,
I believe.


…I could see how it might lead to stagnation were it on
the level of mind only. When I was writing that it was my experience.
I am also not attached to that particular experience. That too would
be stagnation. :-)


By this I do not mean to impugn any spiritual leaders — only to say
that it is relatively easy to magnetize a crowd; leadership charisma
in itself is not a particularly high gift. *lol*


 I’d like to go on record as revising my previously-stated opinion of
yagyas — much of my earlier post was something of a reaction to what
I had perceived in the TMO and elsewhere among various priesthoods. I
have no problem with fair recompense for honest work well done, and I
have no doubt that yagyas performed by sincere and devoted priests
on behalf of sincere devotees do indeed produce powerful results.

 Actually, this is apparently a question of LOYALTY to my mate above
or before all others at all times in all ways. This is not an issue
now of physical fidelity or even personal emotional fidelity, but I
still to some degree unthinkingly agree with whomever I happen to be
around. I have been learning bits and pieces of this over the years
but have more to learn. How much of this is due to the “state of
consciousness” I am in, and how much is simply my own personal flaw,
or if there is a difference, I don’t know.

 …It could almost be simply listening to one’s thought, “There has to be
something more…” and being open to Something Completely Different
if that should come up. Or, “None of these states feels really right
to ME right now. What would MY perfection really feel like…?”

…Yes. “Brahman” is beyond or closer than any criteria or description
at all, other than perhaps “This is simply perfect right now. I can
rest in this.”

…This is perfect. Perception is a function of need/desire.

…I agree with the “the leap of knowingness” — nicely said — but
the “everything is just me” is isn’t exactly as I would have put it
— as it involved letting go of what “I” had been, Absolute, etc., and
surrendering to THAT, but the end result is I suppose the same.

[Comment on: This is the last verse of Rig Veda
– “Samhiti Samani” – the collection of the enlightened
– that Maharishi told us creates “something
infinitly greater than Brahman Consciousness”.]

Wow! The collection of the enlightened. That is beautiful. I think
that’s what may be going on here at FFL. It seems that maybe when
Brahman sees Brahman, Krishna emerges. The identity of one’s personal
Self with one’s personal GOD, and vice versa.

…Who is the knower of even the Absolute? BEAUTIFUL!

Choice is a funny thing. In WITTBB there was virtually no planning;
one moved one step at a time and everything automatically unfolded.
It seemed as if there was essentially no-choice; everything was
equally supported in (a rather flat) THAT. One just did what one
did. Soon afterwards a desire-point manifested itself for more
knowledge. Again, no real choice. It was the only way out.

In WITTBK, after deciding that THAT wasn’t enough, that I needed it
to be able to actually care about me, the whole entirety collapsed
into a point of highly intelligent vibrancy, which I took to be
Krishna. Krishna then seemed to play hide-and-seek, leading me on
into more and more vibrant bliss (I know this term is so overused
that it has become almost meaningless; I have not found a better one
for the quality though. I use it very specifically to describe that
vibrancy of the Personality as opposed to the flatness of THAT). Here
one seemed to have a choice — to follow the bliss or not. In
retrospect it wasn’t much of a choice. Since then I have sometimes
followed the bliss, sometimes chosen what appeared at the time to be
a “lower” option, with less bliss, because of societal dictates or
the like. It seems that Creation is so forgiving that it really
doesn’t matter what you do — even when you consciously throw
yourself into Ignorance, you pop back up like a cork. So again, the
issue of choice — while seeming very real at the time — in
retrospect seems rather illusory. We can perhaps decide which of
several paths to take, but all the paths seem to end up in the same
place. But arriving there again and again from different angles also
seems fun and meaningful.

Without time, the past and the future cease to exist. Without the
past and the future, all boundaries disappear. Without boundaries,
there is no death, no birth, no you, no me – there is just One. Now
is all there is or ever will be.

 Because from My point of view, my mate was (apparently) laying all
these complex plans and telling me repeatedly to keep them
confidential from so-and-so, as this would “solve everything.” The
whole thing to Me was dreamlike and vaguely itchy, like a wool-suit
that was a little too tight, but I didn’t pay it much attention. When
I saw so-and-so and was asked about the plans, I said what felt best –
– essentially the truth. End result was my mate felt betrayed, and I
felt her pain quite intensely. It appears in retrospect it was all
for the best (as always). But that’s the thing — I apparently can’t
wear clothes too long — even to please my mate. I will wear them
long enough to get photographed, and then I have to slip out of them
and run down the beach. I see now that Judas and Peter never betrayed
Christ; it was the other way around. I just can’t be what others want
Me to be. I’ll happily play with you, but if you try to wrap Me up
too tight all you’re going to find is an empty shroud. *lol* (How’s
THAT for delusions of grandeur?!?)

While hints can be helpful, as long as You measure Your state a
posteriori by anyone else’s description, You will continue to believe
in being unawakened. This is a Law of Nature. Just that slight
offcentering is enough to throw it all out of its a priori alignment.
(Unfortunately, even that is slightly untrue and “yet another
description.”) Luckily, none of it really matters. The only real
difference is Your capacity to appreciate what’s going on. It looks
as if You have that. As far as I can tell, it is precisely that
ability (willingness) to go into Ignorance and pop back out again
that demonstrates true trust and Mastery. The only thing You *might*
be lacking is the leap of faith that says it is all a priori already
perfect, HAS to be, and only You can really say whether or to what
degree You have decided to live that (THAT). “Enlightenment” can’t be
given, it can only be taken.

…Somebody once said, “If you really think America is a free country,
just try walking down Main Street naked.” *lol*

Hah — don’t look at me — as Sergeant Schultz said, I know NOTHING!
*lol* I think You are doing a great job. No one’s experience is going
to connect with everyone else’s at every point. That’s the great
thing about being individuals, as far as I can see. :-)

 Were I You, Irmeli, I might look at my statement “unity consciousness
and I’m not yet there” — that doesn’t ring right with me at all. Do
You really believe that? Your perceptions are exquisitely subtle;
aren’t they inside You? Unity isn’t out there; Unity is in here, in
You; “All Beings in Me,” as Michael Goodman so beautifully stated —
not necessarily yet “I am in All Beings.” It can be a subtler thing
than we may be expecting it to be. I think You already know this very
well. Where else could “everything” be except in Me (You)? What else
is there? I don’t believe this is necessarily so much a concrete
experience or constant perception — just a knowing, and with enough
perception to realize it or remember it when necessary. Personally, I
find it very hard to conceive of someone with Your nervous system not
experiencing Unity. But I could be in error. *lol*


As I see it, this perfectly describes the leap of faith and surrender
into “This is perfect NOW,” or “THAT.” It doesn’t describe the
approach to that leap — which may well require complete integration
of all of oneself into one-pointedness — nor the play one may take
afterward as one explores the infinite forgivingness of THAT. It
should not be taken as a description of the state itself (which is
beyond the Gate), nor even necessarily as a recommendation into how
to get “there,” but rather as a confirmation of what one does
automatically as one approaches it. It is like Transcendence — we
don’t try to transcend, and we don’t live life as if we are trying to


…that was going to be my next point — “Enlightenment” can’t be
given, but it can’t really be taken either. It has to be abandoned.


…WOW, Yeah! (*Rory smacks his head*) *lol* “Brahman” as the
wave, “Krishna” as the particle. Brilliant! I am incredibly stupid.

Yes — and perhaps this “problem” may be a belief in Leshavidya, that
somehow the particle is not actually “Krishna.” Because as far as I
can see anyhow, the THAT-wave DOES collapse into the bliss-particle
of Me. It’s only holding on to one when the other is truly desired
that might cause a sense of resistance and suffering, I would think.
And one can be both simultaneously if one wishes, or as close as (to
Me) makes no difference.

> My current focus is to just see “what is” clearly, including the
>shades of attachment and aversion associated with ego states,
>however dominating or attenuated those may be at any given moment.
>I have found his very productive. So far the main benefits have been
>for the intellectual understanding, with “spill-over” effects for
>the emotions and physiology.

Yes, I think those spill-over effects are really great, as they
appear to ground the realizations into the outer. If the body doesn’t
agree with our insight, then it ain’t happening “out there,” as far
as I can see. The outer is (apparently) exactly as our body is; we
perceive it (“manifest it”) all through the filter of our physiology.
So if we see something “out there” that we don’t like, it usually
corresponds to a tension-point “in here” we can usually heal with
attentive Love and breathing. When that’s done the outer has no
choice but to shift to reflect our new clarity. Or so it seems to me.

> Part of my current sadhana is to “downsize” my conceptual
>framework, a process which expands comprehension by refining it,
>rather than adding to it. The biggest “obstacle” I face is
>the “monkey mind” of inner dialog, most of which is associated with
>the aforementioned ego states and their attendant
> attachments and aversions.

I guess that is a problem if we make it one. Perhaps I have a blind
spot here, but I do think now that may be a misunderstanding of our
Ego, and that there truly is no Ego other than Krishna’s (or the
personal THAT), but I may be wrong. It is certainly true that if we
believe in Leshavidya, we manifest it. *lol*

> For about the past year and a half I have been experiencing an
>accelerating intensity of the “heaven/hell” manifestations. During
>the past several months, I have noticed some aspects of the “heaven
>within” becoming stronger and more stable regardless of the
materialization of some of my “worst
> nightmares” in the mundane realm.

Neat! Sounds great!

> My experiences have included several bouts of confronting the sheer
>terror of dissolution. I have deliberately chosen not to resist, and
>to allow them to play themselves out in the mind (where they really
>exist) to the max. For a time they became so dominant that my daily
>life became fairly grim, but gradually
> this other strengthening has taken place, so that inner freedom has
>been more predominant regardless of externalities.
> All of my personal practices (meditation, kriya breathing, Tai
>Chi/Chi Gong) support my “process”, and I find Satsang and darshan
>to be incredible gifts. Because the “trials” of the mundane world
>include financial scarcity, I do not have opportunties for many
>seminars, etc., some of which might be helpful in dealing with the
>inner dialog. I take this as an indication that I need to cultivate
> self-sufficiency as a form of affluence.

Interesting! My take on it would have been to find the disbelief-
points or poverty-points in My affluence-field (body), and harmonize
them with the whole of Me, but I am fascinated by Your approach; it
may well prove “better” than Mine.

> In short ;-D, my only real “complaint” is the persistent inner
>dialog. I do not know whether my “self-sufficient” approach will be
>adequate to deal with it, but I suspect it will (at least) bring me
>to the place where whatever else is required will present itself.

I heartily concur with THAT.

> It is normally NOT part of my overall sadhana to talk much about

I really appreciate that You are doing so at the moment.

>and I am not looking for “certification”,

*LOL* That’s good, because I sure can’t give it to You. *lol*

>but you raised the point about one’s willingness to “take” one’s
>enlightenment, and this is my “take” on taking it.

Beautiful, LB! I would only add that (as You already know) I was not
fully accurate –it is true “Enlightenment” can’t be given, but
neither actually can it be taken — only surrendered.


…I agree. Tom has done a splendid job in capturing the
uncapturable, which is indeed “so bigger-than-life that he is almost
overpowering in person.” What a perfect description of Brahman
Itself! And for what it’s worth, Tom, although I didn’t notice that I
was lonely per se, knowing You here and hearing You speak for Me has
helped to fill a loneliness I didn’t know I had. :-)


I think a fair corollary might be, “Whatever I say is a lie.”


WITTBB = “What I took to be Brahman”
WITTBK = “What I took to be Krishna”


…That art Thou. What You see in Me is You, and
what I owe to You. You showed me where I had gone into criticism and
indifference re MMY and in so doing had numbed (to a degree) my own
appreciation of who I am. From the Grace-flows poured on me by You
and Vashti, I finally really get it firsthand that what we criticise
in another, we bind in ourselves. That heartflow of Loving Grace is
EVERYTHING; it is the food of the Gods. Without it we starve
ourselves to death in the midst of abundance. A most invaluable
lesson! As I said, You are a great chiropractor! I hope to continue
learning from You. :-)

…where do we go from here?
What do we DO with this terrific resource — if anything?
I have found it all to be immensely clarifying, and healing, and even
inspiring, and if there were no more than this, I would still be
profoundly grateful. But I can’t help thinking that this collection
of “Masters” is capable of much more. For example, when my wife
suddenly became deathly ill two years ago, I asked everyone on the TM
newsgroup I was then corresponding with, to pray/visualize for her if
it felt right to do so. I was blown away by the power that seemed (I
know, I can’t prove it) to be coming from that group and surrounding
her — divine “flavors” some of whom I was not at all familiar with
personally. That may not be relevant here, I know, but the idea keeps
tickling at me a little, so I thought I would throw it out there. In
inner work it was always a collection of “Masters” who brought about
specific events in the world as manifestations of divine will. I know
all that is within each of us, but I just wonder how much more we
could do if we consciously concerted ourselves in the outer as well?
I mean, if it were obviously the right thing to do at the time.

…Let me try to explain where I was
coming from, as the whole thing really helped me to understand
certain aspects of MMY I had previously NOT understood and indeed
found repugnant: viz. 1) His rather fulsome tendency to flatter
people and 2) His desire that no one criticize.

A different circuit had fired up inside, wherein (to put it crudely)
not only was I the Me awakening or awake in others, but now
specifically was located in their hearts. The Me in my own heart was
like an extremely HUNGRY flame, and I found that when others
expressed gratitude and Love, their hearts opened and poured or
squirted out Love which FED the FLAME. This flame NEEDS LOVE! It
NEEDS FUEL! It seemed I would say or do almost anything to keep that
flame fed. I could really see the NEED for devotees! By the same
token, when someone criticized, it knotted up the Me in their hearts
and I felt it as actual pain; I was being squeezed and bound. Of
course most of me was still elsewhere in primal being, but still, it
was a knot I couldn’t really ignore. Well, that’s it. I certainly do
not advocate that one refrain from criticizing if that is what one
feels to be right; it is all part of the process. I am just saying
how it felt to Me and (maybe) why MMY was advocating allowing the
heart to stay open. It’s a purely Selfish thing! *lol*

…Oops! Wrong again! What I thought was “my own” heart is everyone’s
heart! That intense radiant fire apparently indwells everyone; the so-
called “flattery” or appreciation of someone was my offering to that
one’s heart-fire.

…I don’t know, but that’s how it seemed to me. I was offered a
(relatively omniscient and omnipotent) “godship” and turned it down
because I wanted to be a man. For me that meant choosing to fly
blind, taking each choice at it came. (A few years afterwards
another “godship” was offered, with seeming physical immortality,
which I also turned down.) Nine or ten years later, after I was
married to a lovely woman, my seemingly-ideal complement came along
(and no, she was not a young nymph; she was a 32-year old single
mother of two) and completely comprehended me. The temptation to walk
with my apparent true complement on earth was tougher than anything
in the celestial realms ever was. But nine or ten more years have
gone by, and I am really glad I stuck with my commitment. (I don’t
believe the other choice would have been “wrong” in any sense but
character development, but that is important to me.) I can’t really
imagine anything else being thrown at me that would tempt, but I
would never say never — the Universe has a way of surprising me, at
least. I know I still have things to learn. Maybe I simply haven’t
met that final temptation yet of which you speak. I just can’t
imagine what else it could be.

…Many thanks to Michael Goodman, who
pointed out that the Ahamkara is indeed the first impulse of
creation. The Ego is in the end (or beginning) that divine fire
itself. Tend the I AM well; nurture it. Let it get as big as all
creation. Please don’t let anyone tell You it is getting “Uppety” and
try to put it down. That’s what keeps us asleep to one degree or
another. The seeds of Self-hatred I came through at the end this time
were INTENSE. If You believe You hate me, think I’m blowing my own
horn, putting on airs, etc. etc., please look to that — that’s the
impulse that hates the Self, resolutely tries to ignore it, to keep
on dreaming. And that’s OK too, but that’s where suffering lies.
Thank You all again; I’ll be around. LOVE YOU!

A hummingird dips and darts; a downy woodpecker clings fast and
hammers away. Each is exquisite; each serves Creation perfectly, and
each gets the nourishment it needs. Or as a great sage once put it
more succinctly, some of us are frizzled leeks and some are
rutabagas. All part of the stew!


I was a bit curious about how Shiva’s I AM fire “ate” the seeds-of-
Self-hate, and some further inquiry this morning showed that the
seeds were like little black pellets going into a solar or nuclear
furnace, or mouth-of-fire. They immediately started to glow from
within, changed quickly through a spectrum of really beautiful
colors, finally turned gold then white as they popped leaving a
whitish residue or powder. This reminded me a lot of certain
alchemical texts on changing lead to gold which finally yielded the
white powder of the philsopher’s stone, and also of the modern
material on ORME, the Orbitally-Rearranged Monoatomic Elements:
transmuting gold and other elements into a superconducting white
powder or manna. (I don’t know offhand how valid this latest research
actually is.) It would seem that perhaps the original or primal
vibhuti or sacred ash is/was the same as ORME and manna and the
alchemist’s and philosopher’s “stone.” Any thoughts?

Message: 17800 From: Rory Goff Received: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Next Obvious Thing – TIETIAIC
More added below:
> >
> I was a bit curious about how Shiva’s I AM fire “ate” the seeds-of-
> Self-hate, and some further inquiry this morning showed that the
> seeds were like little black pellets going into a solar or nuclear
> furnace, or mouth-of-fire. They immediately started to glow from
> within, changed quickly through a spectrum of really beautiful
> colors, finally turned gold then white as they popped leaving a
> whitish residue or powder. This reminded me a lot of certain
> alchemical texts on changing lead to gold which finally yielded the
> white powder of the philsopher’s stone, and also of the modern
> material on ORME, the Orbitally-Rearranged Monoatomic Elements:
> transmuting gold and other elements into a superconducting white
> powder or manna. (I don’t know offhand how valid this latest
> actually is.) It would seem that perhaps the original or primal
> vibhuti or sacred ash is/was the same as ORME and manna and the
> alchemist’s and philosopher’s “stone.” Any thoughts?

Just did a google search on Vibhuti and Manna and found the following


This was a Dallas Lecture by someone named David Hudson, who
apparently discovered ORME “manna.” He found that Sai Baba’s vibhuti
was indeed some carbon residue (possibly the black seeds-of-Self-
hate, which I had thought might be carbon) and iridium (apparently an
ORME metal), and an equivalent to what he calls manna, which is
apparently capable of disappearing and reappearing under lab
conditions and is connected to both bilocation and physical
immortality (reminiscent of my so-called Ascension — the last time I
explored Shiva consciousness — which in utter bliss raised the
body’s vibration above the visible spectrum and then reinstated
as “immortal body”). Most interesting to us perhaps is the last
paragraph, wherein David Hudson apparently talked to John Hagelin,
who consulted MMY on it:
“Well, for those people who are not physicists and don’t understand
what I am talking about, the John Fagan [Hagelin] who is the head of
physics at MIU back in Iowa, who ran for president. Some of you
remember him, he ran for president on the Natural Law Party. Ah, he’s
right behind Ross Perot’s advertisements when he ran, you know,
anyway, a very good looking fellow. I met with him for about three
days back at MIU and went over all the physics and everything with
it. He went over and told the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who has a degree
in physics. The Maharishi said, “This is the stuff that will allow us
to live a thousand years”. The Maharishi has never ever endorsed a
western technology ever until he heard about this. He said, “This is
the stuff”. ”

Can anyone confirm this? Has anyone heard of MMY’s take on ORME,
manna, vibhuti, etc.?


…I just read the blurb of his book and I would swear he is
talking firsthand about the Pleaidean subtle spirit-matter substance
we “ascended” with! This is most exciting! He’s experienced it too!?
How well do You know Rob Cox? He sounds like a most fascinating


I am starting to get kind of excited here — I am beginning to think
maybe all those New Age channelers were right, and perhaps we DID all
enter that subtle Pleiadean “bow-wave” of energy back in the 80’s,
and MMY is right; we ARE in the Age of Englightenment — we just
don’t know it yet. *lol* I bet it is a lot like so-called “Brahman” —
  maybe we just have to put a little more attention on the subtle,
ordinary “stuff” we’re already steeping in, stop thinking it is us
alone, etc. etc. I had (! or have, actually *lol*) a huge arrogance
and “mob-mentality” which actually stepped the energies down because
I didn’t want to be the “only one;” I was going to wait until I had a
lot of company. How ironic! What if many or even all of us are
waiting like that? “You first! No, no, after YOU!” Again, please
don’t be put off by my excessively baroque and crude descriptions. It
might be more like feeling very blessed, on top of the world, “on
fire,” a “golden child,”  a well-balanced teen idol, all the energies
running smoothly everywhere, rich, no distinction between spirit and
matter. *lol* I am betting that You may all know this or something
like it, if You put it into Your own words? That maybe we just have
to find the common ground and let go of our interpretations of what
we think it would have to be before we allowed we were already home;
it is OK to shine?


…Or simply — what would “Enlightenment” feel like to ME? Maybe I am
already here…?


…In fact, I think I am tired of “waiting” — *lol* so here goes: I am
Enlightened, and so are YOU! Fiat LUX!


…MDG could
certainly define Ahamkara better than I, but I’ll take a stab at it.
It literally means “I-maker” and is the sense of personal identity,
ego, or I AM – perhaps the particle as opposed to the wave.


 [Comment on: My one question is when will the ET’s come pick up
Rory and take him home?]

They did….*lol* Home is where the Heart is.

…By raising and lowering first their and then our physical vibrations
beyond and then back into this dimension, they showed me that what I
had previously understood on the inner planes was also true on the
outer; that spirit and matter are one. Hence, Home.


…many of the so-called ET’s we encounter turn out to be aspects
of our higher selves. This became especially clear in the
inner “Mastery” work after “Brahman” and eventually on the outer when
we encountered the Pleiadean ascension energies (which definitely
took me home, EasyOne. :-)). While there were elements of terror
occasionally (mostly in recovered memories from childhood), as an
adult I have generally been struck by the intense Love we have for
one another. (There do indeed appear to be numerous species, with
their own agendas. Some seem considerably more enlightened than
others, at least by my standards. Many of them have not outgrown
politics.) The few “ships” I have encountered have been made of
subtle matter, as far as I could see. They are capable of “appearing”
and “disappearing” by lowering and raising their vibratory frequency
into and out of this dimension, as indeed (at certain points) are we

Another note on “Brahman” — it may be realised by surrendering or
letting go of “enlightenment” in the sense of using anyone else’s
yardstick, and insisting on our own perfection. If this idea wakes
the bodymind up and aligns it, we’re probably on the right track at
the right time. But immediately, objections will come up. This is
part of the natural dialectic, the clearing or “unstressing”
process: “When Love (or truth) knocks on the door, all the fears line
up to be released.” If we meet the objections, one by one, every one
we integrate will both change our physiology and our understanding of
perfection. When the process is done, so are we, at least as far as
the shift is concerned. Again, this is more of a description than a
prescription. But it may help to remind you not to take the
objections to Your perfection as Gospel; they are illusions to be
heard and processed; each one You process brings You that much closer
to where You already are.

…I did not
vouch for the validity of the current research on ORMEs. How could I?
I am no expert in the field. However, I am unwilling to dismiss the
research out of hand, BECAUSE I have not studied the phenomena
extensively. If you have, I would love to see your data. If not, I
wonder at your reflexive certainty about something you may know
nothing about. (How is that different from being wrong and stupid?)
If I am missing something here, please enlighten me! I am open to
learning new things. IMO, simply calling me “just plain wrong and
stupid too” does not reflect well on your maturity, nor does it
really encourage honest dialogue. I would like to respect your
position, but I have yet to understand it.

…It has become clearer to me since then that …
living an ordinary life well and doing my best to show everyone
I met how much I appreciated them — to honor their light — was
overall the best expression for me.

…At the moment, if
something is in my attention-field and impinging on me, I take it as
OK to work on it, regardless of where or whom it appears to be
stemming from. This is especially true if someone “jumps into” my
heart. I will subject them to the I AM flame there when it feels
appropriate to do so, and I will also feel whatever bubbles of
bitterness etc. they are releasing from their side. Since this is
all “Me” I have no compunctions about doing this. (I don’t usually
find it necessary to point out to someone what I am doing or feeling;
it is all done quietly on the inner.) I have been going about my
daily business as usual since I joined FFL, but most of my inward
attention is taken up these days with those on FFL (and a few
elsewhere) who have been appearing in my heart or elsewhere in my
attention-field (body). I feel what appears to be their suffering as
my own, and as we cook it together in the I AM flame it gets
dissolved into bliss. This is usually much easier and quicker to do
with my own “personal” pain than it is with “others'” pain, but the
principle appears to be the same: Loving attention and simply being
with it until it is fully heard, felt, and harmonized into its true

As kind of a side-note, I was in this particular space when LB
contributed his great quote on the cynic vs. the self-deceived ego.
This caused me to think about where “I” was, and realize that “I” was
taking on more than I had to, by adhering to a Solar-system model
(the “I AM” Sun and all its children, or planetary awarenesses) as
opposed to a Constellation model (remembering that the “I AM” fire is
in everyone; everyone is his or her own Sun or star with their
own “universal” laws; everyone is their own “God” creating their own
worlds. This seems to be a better model and appears to free us all up
some. :-)


…a human life is perhaps
sometimes more of a work of art than a science experiment — first
love may not be repeatable, but that doesn’t rule it out as a valid
(personal) experience…. I would never ask anyone to take on faith
something that I had experienced, anyhow. That would be absurd. (But
I would hope they might keep an open mind, in the spirit of
scientific inquiry.)


…an SCA cannot necessarily “heal” someone else even though they
may well feel that person’s suffering….


…I used to feel a
lot of anger at MMY for his supposed lack of compassion, especially
on the Science and Veda Course. Deep-down was the expectation that he
could change everyone’s suffering, simply take it away. Or at least
acknowledge it in some way.

…I was remembering that we can’t relieve another’s suffering
without their permission.

…And I have no particular focus; I just write about whatever comes up,
trying to be as honest as possible. Outside of FFL, “enlightenment”
is not an issue.

…Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I am healing no one but my Self, and I
need no professional context for that. It happens anyhow.


…I did (finally) move on from anger and expectation
toward MMY, though it was a long process, and I still find seeds of
greater understanding about the whole thing unfolding even now,
thanks to those of You here on FFL. How perfect is the divine
pattern! I cannot speak on what purpose the course served as a whole,
or whether there was a specific transition phase going on then for
the TMO (Both fascinating questions, but I would be merely
speculating at the moment), but for me it was all about reclaiming
the power and spiritual authority I had invested in MMY; a kind
of “adolescent rebellion” against my spiritual father-figure, and as
such a healthy phase, and necessary.

In retrospect now I am supremely happy MMY was what he was for me,
and my placing him on a pedestal was important, for it raised the bar
on my own expectations to allow myself nothing but the very best —
that consciousness which he himself had represented for me for so
long. For a long time it bothered me when others would place me on a
similar pedestal, for I knew it would eventually be overthrown, and I
would be the one bearing the brunt of their anger as they reclaimed
for themselves what they had invested in me. Now, fortunately, that
doesn’t bother me much — I just love watching and feeling the
process of awakening going on in Me; it is worth the growing pains. I
do my best to point out that others are already perfect, but I don’t
hesitate to describe where I am either because “I” am the “I” in them
as well. Perhaps that raises the bar, exalts the holiness of who they
in truth are. If that angers some, fine — that appears to be part of
the process of waking up to their own perfection. And again, I have a
supreme luxury that MMY does not — the luxury of an ordinary life
(outside of FFL). For this I am overwhelmingly grateful.


Who knows? A great many of us may actually be “aliens” incarnating as
humans at this time. We wouldn’t even know this necessarily until we
allowed our earth-hypnosis to fall away. This would be a great way to
get around the free-will “prime directive” — sowing ourselves like
seeds into the ignorance and suffering, and then (eventually)
invoking the Sun of our “alien” Higher Self as a human, from within
the ignorance itself. Of course in that contect, calling
ourselves “aliens” would be rather ridiculous…


…I don’t particularly mind being used as a yardstick
to measure oneself by, to stimulate one’s OWN growth, if that is what
one wishes to do and what one enjoys doing. That person enlivens Me
in them, and eventually recoups their investment. BUT I have found it
hurts my heart when I am compared to another in a way that appears to
put the other down….


…while I enjoy inspiring and enlivening others, it hurts if I am compared to
another in such a way as to put the other down. It reminds me of a
parent saying, “Why can’t you be more like your brother,” which
always struck me as a sort of blasphemy….


…I have noticed that all pain — even the most pronounced
physical pain — is actually bliss, when attended to singlemindedly.
This sort of attention is not “natural” to me even now; i.e. I would
have to focus very specifically on that sensation to recognize it for
what it truly is. It is not unlike using a higher-powered “lens” than
I normally use — one that sees it solely at the molecular or atomic
level, so to speak. It would be very easy to forget to do this.


…it would seem You are assuming they put themselves
 on pedestals. How do You know they are doing that?
Perhaps they are just honoring the consciousness itself?
I am not saying it is not possible for some part of an SCA which
still believes in “leshavidya” to claim THAT. In one sense there is
nothing more foolish than the statement “I am enlightened,” and God
knows I have played the fool many times. But if we are viewing them
with that part of ourselves which still believes in ignorance, how
can we really know we are seeing them, and not a mirror of ourselves?


…Only You are responsible for the contents of Your world, and especially
how You respond to them.


…I can see angels, or gods, or God, or be
them, or know them all as inside of Me, if and when I desire to do
so. When I wish to use that lens of perception I use that lens. So
can You, and so can anyone. Perception is a result of focussed
desire, as far as I can tell. If You truly admit Your desire, You
will see that You are seeing or being exactly what You wish to see or




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